Presence, Fatherhood, and the Power of Casual Kindness with Brian Anderson

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Welcome to another episode

of Dad's Interrupted.

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I'm super excited today.

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The guest today, his name is Brian

Anderson, and I met Brian roughly a

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year ago through Fathering Together and

really through FairPlay when I became

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a certified FairPlay method facilitator

had some posts on LinkedIn, and Brian,

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you reached out to me and invited me

to be a part of the Fathering Together

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Summer Series, I'm sure you remember.

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Yeah, We go not way back like

Eric and I, but we go back.

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I'm excited to have another

conversation with you.

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And really the goal today is just

to to impart any wisdom through

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the, your years of being a dad and

a husband and kind of share some

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stories and we'll see if hopefully it's

helpful to the listeners out there.

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Thanks for coming on.

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Thanks for spending an

hour with us, Brian.

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No, I appreciated the invite and always.

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Always a good time to talk about

how to improve ourselves as dads

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and partners, men, what have you.

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Looking forward to this.

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So a little bit about Brian just

currently Brian's working at

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a organization called ICSTARS.

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He's the director of foundation relations.

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The goal there is to help the rest

of us understand the brilliant

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tech endeavors of their interns.

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Especially if we don't talk tech

very well, which a lot of us

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older folks like myself might not.

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Outside of ICSTARS Ryan is a committed

husband, father, and a gender equity

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advocate, balancing his time between

building Lego structures and kitchen

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adventures with his two daughters.

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I'm excited to talk about those

adventures, but we always ask our guests,

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the first question is, what does it

mean to you to be an interrupted dad?

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Yeah, when you first asked me this, it

really gave me pause and I've thought

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more and more about it ever since.

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For me, I think it really stems from

the idea that we are dads first once

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we have children if we're so lucky and

the interruptions come with all the

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things we have to do to have a job, to

get financial support into our lives so

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that we can be present to our kids and.

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Yeah, so I think it, and there's

a lot we can unpack there.

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I'll just put that out, right?

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There's a lot we can unpack, but for

me, Interrupted Dads really means all

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the things that get in the way of being

physically or emotionally or spiritually

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present with our children, which is

really a lot of what has gone into my

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writing and research and all of that.

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Work that went to build fathering together

as well, because once I became a dad,

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everything else just became second other.

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My relationship with my wife is great.

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That's not, I don't want to put one

before the other per se but yeah,

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everything I do now is through this

lens of how to benefit my children.

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And what can I do to you.

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Make those processes in my life easier.

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So yeah, and that makes a whole lot

of sense I think most of the dads

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listening would agree that their

most important role is being dad

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But it isn't always easy, right?

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So So I know and this

is a great time to talk.

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So you're still involved with

fathering together org Is the

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website that dads can go to for

support lots of free resources there.

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There's some meetups that they,

that fathering together does.

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Do you, I don't know, how involved are

you with fathering together these days?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So I'm the co founder, but right now I'm

basically the president of our board.

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And so we have a new executive director.

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We have.

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Other folks stepping in to lead and

volunteer in different capacities,

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but really, I'm there to just

provide oversight and mentorship

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for our executive director.

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But then, I, I can't not do

fatherhood work in whatever

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capacity I find myself in.

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And I'm constantly meeting

folks like you, right?

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Last year, just connecting on LinkedIn

with you, and that continues to

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this day and thinking through, what

is the gift that you bring to your

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family and like with this podcast?

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What are the stories that you have

that can benefit other dads so that

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we can all be learning together?

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One of the things I often remind myself,

but other dads I work with is, there's no

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perfect manual for fatherhood except for

the one you co create with your child.

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And you can read every book, including

mine and you're still going to

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have to forge your own path, right?

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Like all these books from experts

are just guideposts and suggestions.

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And obviously some are better suggestions

than others depending on what your

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child is and who they will become.

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But but yeah, my role has really just been

continuing to give that strategic support

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and connecting connection building.

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Yeah, a hundred percent.

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I think I've been a dad now myself.

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For 12 years my daughter's 17 started

raising her when she was five.

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My son is eight and I think I've

learned over the years that once I get

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good at what, once I think I'm getting

pretty good at being dad, they change.

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And so now my, my, I have

to adapt to their new age.

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So it's yeah, like all, you get

really good at raising a, Raising a

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child when they're 5, 6, 7, then all

of a sudden they're 8 and the, the

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whole game changes, rules change.

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And I think being adaptable and not being

too hard on yourself, but, But really

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celebrating your wins, but realizing

you're going to have to keep working

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at it because it's not a one time.

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I learned it all.

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And now I'm done.

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I don't know if that's the same for you.

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Heck no, not at all.

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As soon as I thought I was getting

good, the rules change, right?

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And.

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I think the more I invest in

knowing my children the less I'm

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caught off guard, so to speak.

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Because, you're right the rules

do change pretty dramatically.

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My, my oldest is 10 and I'm

already seeing the tween and

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teen personality coming through.

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But it's incremental, right?

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Their sarcasm is rising a little bit

where their attitude and comebacks

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are a little more sophisticated.

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And not an overnight

thing by any means, but.

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If I wasn't as connected, right?

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If I was always working, if I was

gone 60 hours a week traveling for

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work, then yeah, it would appear that

something that happened overnight.

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But I think for those of us that have

the luxury and the privilege to be at

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home more or to have a flexible schedule

because of our jobs or whatever if we pay

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attention, we can see some of those signs.

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But, I w as you were talking to the.

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The phrase or the question

that we often get what's the

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best age to be a parent, right?

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Or Oh, I've got a, fill

in the blank year old.

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I love this age.

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And I don't know, the more I've

evolved with my children and

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my parenting and relationships.

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It's getting harder and harder for me

to say any one point in their journey

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has been my favorite because They're

all just new right like each discovery

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each inch that they grow so they can

reach something or you know a little bit

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more skilled or responsible to walk down

the street by themselves or Make dinner

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or make their own breakfast, right?

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Like those are all wins that we celebrate

in our own ways and yeah, it's They're

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each new, and so to compare them.

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A nine year old experience from

an 18 month old experience is,

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it's like apples and oranges.

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So I've really started to rethink how

I respond to those kinds of prompts and

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questions of what is the perfect age?

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Cause yeah.

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Yeah.

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As you were saying there's just, there's

always something new to be learning

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and navigating with your children.

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I always joke with my son my daughter's

a little bit older for this joke but

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I always tell my son still, I'll tell

him stop growing up because he's eight.

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And and I've been saying that to

him when he, since he was, two

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or three years old and, he knows

it's a joke and obviously it's.

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It's beautiful to see him, grow into

a young kid and as he grows up to just

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watch him, learn new things and become

the boy and the man he will, he will

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eventually be but I do miss the days.

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I do miss the days when he was a baby.

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I really do.

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I just, I love that age, but yes,

I agree with you to your sentiment.

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Like there, there's always some Something

new and exciting and as being a father

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and there's always new challenges.

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One of the things you just said, is

knowing your kids and I love that tip.

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So I think with this podcast, I

always say we're here to just offer

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some advice and experiences that

we've had for your consideration.

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And if it doesn't align with you,

it doesn't, just, that's okay.

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Just leave it.

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But if it's, if you can take

something from it that's

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wonderful, but I think what I've.

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Notice about myself.

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It's it's more important to know me

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than it is to, or equally important,

maybe I'll say, because I think the

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thing that my kids have taught me the

most is that I'm the one that needs to

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dive deeper into figuring out who I am.

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And they helped me do that through

the experiences of being a dad.

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So , what I found, , is that the

more that I learn about my kids,

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then the more I learned about myself,

which helps me become a better dad.

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And I always say this, like the most,

Beneficial thing you can do for your wife,

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for your spouse, for your partner and for

your kids is to actually learn more about

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who you are and to reflect on who you

want to become if you're trying to grow.

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I don't know if that's something

that you guys resonate with at all.

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Yeah.

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When I was interviewing dads

for my book, the first question.

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If not, the second was always, when

did you know you wanted to be a dad?

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And a vast majority said I didn't,

or I, when I held my child for

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the first time, which, that's a.

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An interesting conversation we

can have another time of like,

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when do you become a dad right?

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Or the differences between a man and a

woman when going through the childbirth

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experience but for me, it was more

like all these dads who had no clue

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what they were getting themselves into.

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They might read a book.

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They might have read a book or gone

to a class with their partner, but

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so many of them were just like,

I'll figure it out as I go along.

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And, yeah.

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And some of that is true.

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Like some of it, you just

can't prepare for right.

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Some of the stuff my youngest

has done compared to my oldest.

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I'm just like, not gonna read

you the manual completely.

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But yeah, I've said to my

children many times they're here.

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Not to be my parents, and not to

be each other's parents, my oldest

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loves to tell her little sister

what to do and and I'm like, stop.

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focus on yourself, right?

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This is not for you.

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I'm the parent or whatever.

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But the same as true, like our kids

are, they definitely have insights for

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us, like we learn from them all the

time, but we should be the mature one.

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We should be the one that can

have the critical lens and the

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maturity to change as needed.

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Obviously if you've got mental health

challenges, like I have ADHD When I'm

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not on meds, like my ADHD can really get

me sporadic at times and I lose that,

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some of that prioritization that I need.

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But I totally agree with your point.

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And I think the more we can use

platforms like this podcast, like

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Fathering Together's communities to find

sources of support outside of the home.

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To grow and learn the better because

if you only have your partner or

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your Children as your outlets,

then that's a recipe for disaster.

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You're not going to, you've got

to have somebody else to go to the

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event or to process because your

kids are far too young to deal

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with what you need to deal with.

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And sometimes you just need a break

from your partner, good marriages have

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a little bit of space in them and for

out for outside feedback, so to speak.

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Yeah.

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A hundred percent.

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I think we talk, we've talked on

previous episodes about, finding

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community, finding some support network.

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A lot of men , that I talked

to, I'm sure that same for

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you, Brian, it's hard to find.

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Close friends who you're willing to

talk to about certain things, a lot

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of us go out, to watch football and

we'll talk about sports or we'll talk

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about , surface level conversations.

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We don't necessarily have a friend

or 2 or 3 or even a group right to

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really dive into the harder stuff

and we don't, I'm not saying you

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have to do that every weekend.

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But just to know you have it.

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When you do need it is better

than, all of a sudden now you got

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a major, conflict issue in your

relationship, in your fatherhood

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journey, and you've no one to talk to.

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So yeah, fatheringtogether.

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org or, I'm sure there's a local

group, hopefully, wherever you're

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listening from that you can find.

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I know there's a men's group

in Syracuse here where I'm at

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that meets every Wednesday.

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But find some support group that you

trust, that's safe, that you can actually

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talk about some of these harder things.

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Super important.

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Let's pivot to , a story from

your journey as a dad that

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didn't go so well but gave you

a great lesson for the future.

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Yeah, I think it speaks to what we

were just talking about in terms of

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just being present and connected.

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And this was halfway through the pandemic.

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Early 2021.

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And my oldest was 7, 8 years old.

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And I was working full time trying to

get filing together off the ground,

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fundraising, making connections, whatever,

which meant, I was not physically,

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I was physically present, right?

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I couldn't leave the house, but mentally

I was always thinking of what's next,

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what's the deadline I need to work toward.

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I wasn't ever really

signing off from work.

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I would leave my office down here in

the basement, but at dinner I would

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have my phone nearby or whatever.

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There was just all these

distractions around me.

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And so I was putting my daughter to

bed one night and I was like going

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to sing her a song, do our routine.

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And she was like, dad, no, I

don't want you to do these things.

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Like pushing me away.

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And I was just like, are you mad at me?

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What's going on?

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And she said, you've been doing all

this work to help dads be better dads.

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And I said, yeah, that's what

filing together is all about.

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And she's you're not being

a very good dad to me.

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And for a seven year old to have that

awareness and to be honest with me is.

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Amazing.

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So like on a certain level, I built a

level of trust and relationship with

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her for her to be so open with me.

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So I get that.

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Thanks.

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Great.

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Fine.

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And yet she's still sad.

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And yet I was still not being.

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I was not living what I

was professing, right?

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Like I would, at the time I was doing like

a Sunday night reflection and sometimes

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she would even join me and we would

just do a little live conversation on

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Facebook or, writing things or whatever.

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And she, was old enough to read.

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And so she read some stuff.

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She would be talking with me about things

we were doing, making life lessons.

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So she knew what I thought good

fatherhood should look like.

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She knew what I was trying

to coach other men to do.

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And yet she wasn't

experiencing that for me.

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And a good friend of mine is

a, a minister in a church.

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And he, at the time I was talking

with him about it and processing it.

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Cause I was pretty heartbroken by it.

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That was not news I wanted to hear.

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And he was like you've got

preacher kid syndrome, right?

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As a preacher, he's on the pulpit every

Sunday and he's worked really hard to be.

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balanced and to be present

to his family and not let the

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congregation where he worked at the

time be his family all the time.

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And so we had some really great

conversations and he's been a part

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of fathering together in various

forms as well over the years.

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And at that moment I had

to make a choice, right?

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I cried that night a little bit, processed

it and talk with my partner as well.

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My wife gave me some feedback that

was a little more harsh as well.

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And I decided okay, I could just walk

away from everything and be a good

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dad, or I could find a balance because

while my fatherhood role is very

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fulfilling, I still love to work, right?

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I love being, doing what I do with

I see stars now with fathering

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together and other things.

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And I made a commitment and I

started changing my habits and I

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started putting firm boundaries

around when dinner is served.

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There's no, especially not my phone,

but there's no screens at the table.

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And there are more activities that we

do as a family and just to be more open.

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And I think that instance, along with all

of these interviews I was doing at the

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time really started to build what my book

fathering together became because of that.

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Yeah.

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That harsh truth my daughter threw at me

and I bring it up every once in a while

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to her and she doesn't really remember

cause it's been four years but she doesn't

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hesitate to remind me when I'm being

a bad dad or when I'm not living up to

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the expectations that she has for me.

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And so it's a good.

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: 00:16:35

Good feedback, constant, blunt

reminder for how to be a good dad.

310

: 00:16:41

You're telling that story.

311

: 00:16:42

And by the way, thank you for sharing.

312

: 00:16:43

And, I think it's important anytime

men admit in public or on a podcast

313

: 00:16:48

that we cry to acknowledge that,

it is totally okay to cry as a man.

314

: 00:16:55

I would argue that it's actually

a good thing and it's healthy.

315

: 00:16:58

We tend as men to be To kind of align

with a lot of the things we were told

316

: 00:17:03

when we were kids, what it means to

be a man is to be tough and man up and

317

: 00:17:08

not, not never cry or push it down.

318

: 00:17:10

And those emotions that

we have need an outlet.

319

: 00:17:13

And if we keep bottling those,

pushing those down, bottling

320

: 00:17:16

them up, they eventually

typically will come out as anger.

321

: 00:17:19

And so I would, yeah, I would just

offer for your consideration, the

322

: 00:17:23

listeners to, to take, you Take that

and hopefully apply it for your own

323

: 00:17:28

life that it's totally okay to cry and

it doesn't mean you're less of a man.

324

: 00:17:31

You're human first and yeah.

325

: 00:17:33

So thank you for sharing that.

326

: 00:17:35

While you were telling that story, I

was thinking of the earlier story when

327

: 00:17:38

you said your daughter told you're

the youngest to focus on yourself.

328

: 00:17:42

And that's what in that story, she said

Hey, dad, you should be focusing on

329

: 00:17:46

yourself, which is really like you said,

super insightful for a seven year old.

330

: 00:17:49

Yeah.

331

: 00:17:50

And great that you built up that

honesty and trust and safety in the

332

: 00:17:53

relationship for her to say that.

333

: 00:17:55

And that's going to , be even more

important when she's older and out in

334

: 00:17:58

the world a little more with more, quote

unquote dangers to be able to come to

335

: 00:18:03

you and share, how she's truly feeling.

336

: 00:18:05

So that's awesome.

337

: 00:18:06

So it's definitely it hurts I'm sure,

but it was a win, in the long run.

338

: 00:18:11

Hundred percent a win.

339

: 00:18:12

Yeah.

340

: 00:18:13

And.

341

: 00:18:13

And much like you were saying

earlier, there's no five lessons

342

: 00:18:17

that you need to learn and then

you're set for fatherhood, right?

343

: 00:18:19

Like it's a constant reminder and

a revisiting, like every couple

344

: 00:18:22

of weeks, am I living up to

what I need to do for my family?

345

: 00:18:26

And that's not just the income

that I bring in, but am I

346

: 00:18:30

present at school events?

347

: 00:18:32

Do I chaperone or do I

volunteer at school events?

348

: 00:18:35

Do I get them to and from their

sporting events and whatnot?

349

: 00:18:39

And I think those are things too that

you and I have talked about before that

350

: 00:18:42

a lot of women take on as moms It's

they're just the default worrier parenting

351

: 00:18:48

logistics person for a household and

That's not fair to them because they're

352

: 00:18:52

not living their best life if they're

just constantly doing a chore list

353

: 00:18:56

So how do we balance that too, right?

354

: 00:18:58

How do we take on some of that burden

so to speak of life maintenance for

355

: 00:19:04

a home so that Both parents, right?

356

: 00:19:07

If you're so lucky to be in a married

or just committed relationship that

357

: 00:19:10

you both have some outlets to pursue

your hobbies and interests, because if

358

: 00:19:15

you're not able to do that, then you are

going to get pretty boring and stale and

359

: 00:19:21

start to burn out, which means you're

emotionally disconnecting from yourself

360

: 00:19:26

and not crying and bottling up and all

the things you also were alluding to.

361

: 00:19:31

I don't know.

362

: 00:19:33

This is not a spoiler per se, because

I won't give much context, but

363

: 00:19:36

there's a movie called the iron claw.

364

: 00:19:38

If you haven't watched

it I just watched it.

365

: 00:19:40

It's about the wrestling culture here in

the United States and this one specific

366

: 00:19:44

family from the seventies and eighties.

367

: 00:19:46

And one of the characters at one

point, this is very masculine,

368

: 00:19:49

very bodybuilding, tough kind of

stereotypical manliness stuff.

369

: 00:19:54

And one of the characters cries.

370

: 00:19:56

And His son see him and

he immediately apologizes.

371

: 00:20:00

He's I'm sorry.

372

: 00:20:00

I shouldn't be crying.

373

: 00:20:01

I shouldn't be crying.

374

: 00:20:02

And the two boys, the care, I don't

know how old they're supposed to be

375

: 00:20:05

like, single digit years, pretty young.

376

: 00:20:07

They're like, that's okay.

377

: 00:20:08

Dad, we cry all the time.

378

: 00:20:09

Cause kids don't know any better.

379

: 00:20:10

They learn not to cry from us.

380

: 00:20:12

And so for the boys to just be so

cavalier and just be like, screw

381

: 00:20:17

that dad, we cry all the time.

382

: 00:20:18

Like you can be cool.

383

: 00:20:20

It was just a beautiful

moment in the movie.

384

: 00:20:22

Yeah.

385

: 00:20:22

But also just reminded me

that Real courage, right?

386

: 00:20:27

Like real strength is not the body

building slam body slamming strength.

387

: 00:20:32

Obviously that muscle is strength

fine, but the real strength comes

388

: 00:20:35

from being emotional, right?

389

: 00:20:36

Are you courageous enough to

cry in front of other men?

390

: 00:20:39

Are you courageous enough to

cry in front of your children

391

: 00:20:42

and explain why you're crying?

392

: 00:20:44

We were watching a movie and

my daughter started crying

393

: 00:20:46

and I was like, are you okay?

394

: 00:20:47

And she's happy tears, dad, happy tears.

395

: 00:20:49

And it was a happy part of the

movie and she just got overwhelmed.

396

: 00:20:52

So she cried and you're right.

397

: 00:20:54

Like crying is natural.

398

: 00:20:56

Crying is a body's response to stimulus.

399

: 00:21:00

And sometimes that's all

our body knows to do.

400

: 00:21:03

And that's okay.

401

: 00:21:04

There's nothing abnormal about

crying, and unfortunately we've

402

: 00:21:07

made it socially abnormal, but

biologically it's all in there.

403

: 00:21:12

So we, whether we acknowledge it or not.

404

: 00:21:15

Yeah.

405

: 00:21:15

Beautiful.

406

: 00:21:16

And I and you touched on it briefly

about providing right financially.

407

: 00:21:20

And that's another thing

I talk about a lot.

408

: 00:21:21

And I know you and I have talked

about before is this idea that

409

: 00:21:24

men are the provider, right?

410

: 00:21:25

It's an old school idea.

411

: 00:21:27

And what I like to talk about.

412

: 00:21:29

When we talk about providing is there are

multiple ways that dads provide for their

413

: 00:21:36

family and moms, there's multiple ways.

414

: 00:21:38

It's not just financial.

415

: 00:21:39

So if you think that you're entitled

to anything because you bring home a

416

: 00:21:43

certain amount of money or that you've

successfully navigated fatherhood because

417

: 00:21:48

you're quote unquote, the provider by.

418

: 00:21:50

By checking off a box because you bring

income into the home well, and that's

419

: 00:21:54

where you're stopping, then I would

challenge you to consider what providing

420

: 00:21:58

might mean and you've already mentioned

it multiple times on the episode, but

421

: 00:22:03

being present with your family in those

moments, being able to shut work down at

422

: 00:22:08

a certain time, whatever is comfortable

for you, and having those moments of

423

: 00:22:13

those pockets of time where you're

just present in the room and paying

424

: 00:22:16

attention to your kids and your wife.

425

: 00:22:19

Or your spouse, those moments are

they don't come back, there's a

426

: 00:22:24

great book called the power of

now I think it's called by Eckhart

427

: 00:22:27

Tolle and the powers in the present.

428

: 00:22:31

That's all you have.

429

: 00:22:32

There's all that's

guaranteed for all of us.

430

: 00:22:34

Take advantage of it.

431

: 00:22:35

And I think we get distracted.

432

: 00:22:36

I've been there the story you told

about being the busy guy, busy dad,

433

: 00:22:40

who's work, and the phone's right there.

434

: 00:22:42

I've done that too.

435

: 00:22:43

And I'm sure a lot of the men dad's

listening have, Probably resonate

436

: 00:22:48

with that story because I think it's

something that can easily happen to us.

437

: 00:22:52

The world is full of distractions and we

are passionate about our work hopefully.

438

: 00:22:55

So it's not something, it's not

you're necessarily scrolling on,

439

: 00:22:59

social media, although we do get

distracted with some of that too.

440

: 00:23:03

But but yeah, anytime you

could put your phone away.

441

: 00:23:06

Just be present in the room.

442

: 00:23:07

I think that's that is providing.

443

: 00:23:09

You are now providing your presence and

a lot of magic happens in those moments.

444

: 00:23:13

If you can really successfully do it.

445

: 00:23:15

Yeah go ahead.

446

: 00:23:17

Sorry.

447

: 00:23:17

Yeah, the so speaking of

tips and presence and stuff.

448

: 00:23:20

Yeah the simplest thing is just

get off your screen, right?

449

: 00:23:22

Just sit down with your kid.

450

: 00:23:24

Get on their level.

451

: 00:23:25

Look at them eye to eye rather

than staring down at them.

452

: 00:23:28

Chances are.

453

: 00:23:29

Your kid's not going to be

your height until they're in

454

: 00:23:32

high school, middle school.

455

: 00:23:33

And there's a power dynamic there.

456

: 00:23:37

And if your kid is constantly looking

up at you and you're looking down

457

: 00:23:42

at them, there's a, there's some

fear that could be driven into that.

458

: 00:23:45

And whenever my kids have been in

trouble, we let them know, right?

459

: 00:23:49

Like we have timeouts.

460

: 00:23:50

We, we definitely have

consequences in my house.

461

: 00:23:53

But when they get out of that

consequence whether it's doing a

462

: 00:23:56

chore or having alone time in their

room, I always remind them that I

463

: 00:24:00

love them and that I'm on their level.

464

: 00:24:02

Like I get down on my knees or I

sit down on the floor and I say, Hey

465

: 00:24:07

let's focus and look at each other and

make sure that they see that respect.

466

: 00:24:13

I love that.

467

: 00:24:13

It's you're literally on their level, it's

like you're on their level figuratively,

468

: 00:24:19

but you actually represent that by

lower, like kneeling down or crouching

469

: 00:24:25

down, sitting down with them and being

on their level, literally, which I

470

: 00:24:29

think is a great, that's a great tip.

471

: 00:24:31

Cause honestly, Brian, this is one

of the reasons I love doing this

472

: 00:24:34

show is I learned something new.

473

: 00:24:37

I don't know.

474

: 00:24:37

I'm not saying I've never done

that, but I've never actually,

475

: 00:24:39

I don't think intentionally.

476

: 00:24:42

And so it makes sense.

477

: 00:24:44

Yeah, thank you.

478

: 00:24:45

And I'm sure I picked it up from

some wiser, older person, even if it

479

: 00:24:49

was my dad or someone, but and Dr.

480

: 00:24:51

Becky, if she's not been on your show

yet, you need to get her in the queue

481

: 00:24:55

because she has so many great respect

leveling, power dynamic kind of strategies

482

: 00:25:01

to work past the the old paradigms, that.

483

: 00:25:04

Kids should be seen, not heard

and, or not even seen at all,

484

: 00:25:08

or that dad always knows best.

485

: 00:25:10

Screw that.

486

: 00:25:11

I don't always know best.

487

: 00:25:12

I barely know what I want to be when

I grow up and I'm in my forties now.

488

: 00:25:14

So there's definitely moments that

I'm honest and open with my children.

489

: 00:25:19

Another great story, speaking

of vulnerable moments, like my

490

: 00:25:23

oldest struggled with bedwetting,

much like some, so many children.

491

: 00:25:28

And it's two, three in the

morning and she's really upset.

492

: 00:25:31

She's crying, changing

the bed and whatever.

493

: 00:25:33

And I tell her just, go to the

bathroom and I'll be with you in a

494

: 00:25:36

minute, but I was half awake, so I

don't know what kind of emotion I

495

: 00:25:38

was emoting, it's two in the morning.

496

: 00:25:40

But when I came into the bathroom to

help her clean up, I could tell she was

497

: 00:25:43

really upset and distraught and crying.

498

: 00:25:45

And so I just got down again on her

level, sat down with her and just

499

: 00:25:49

looked her in the eye and said, Do not

be upset that you're wetting the bed.

500

: 00:25:53

I used to wet the bed and it

was like, I just, I don't know.

501

: 00:25:58

Taught her calculus or explain the theory

of any earth shattering movement to her.

502

: 00:26:04

And she just looked at

me and she's really?

503

: 00:26:06

Like my dad, wet the bed as a

kid, like that's unheard of.

504

: 00:26:10

But kids don't know that, right?

505

: 00:26:11

And it calmed her down.

506

: 00:26:13

We cleaned her up and, and a few days

later we finally got through it and,

507

: 00:26:16

she rarely if ever went to bed again.

508

: 00:26:19

But my wife had obviously been

awake cause it was loud and

509

: 00:26:22

she was crying and everything.

510

: 00:26:23

And I get into bed and my wife was just

like, I couldn't be more in love with

511

: 00:26:29

you for how you handle that situation.

512

: 00:26:31

And, and I was like, But yeah, like

whatever, like for me, it was just

513

: 00:26:36

like my kid was crying and I knew a

way to get her to calm down, right?

514

: 00:26:39

That's what fatherhood is.

515

: 00:26:40

It's not showing up.

516

: 00:26:42

Or it's not winning a

seven figure sale, right?

517

: 00:26:46

That's great if you can, but it's being

there at two in the morning when your

518

: 00:26:49

kid needs you, it's being there at seven

in the morning when they don't know

519

: 00:26:52

how to get their socks on, or they,

are about to get, be late for school.

520

: 00:26:56

And, they realize their homework

assignment is due, there's any

521

: 00:26:59

number of things that are thankless

that are ignored and yet have

522

: 00:27:05

profound impacts on our children.

523

: 00:27:08

Because they've just never

had that experience before.

524

: 00:27:11

Or they've built up a narrative in

their brain because they've only

525

: 00:27:14

been around two or three years,

or ten even and here you come

526

: 00:27:18

shattering it and saying, it's normal.

527

: 00:27:20

Here's a new type of data

that will help you normalize.

528

: 00:27:24

Something in a new way and ease,

some of that tension or fear or

529

: 00:27:29

whatever is going on in their brain.

530

: 00:27:32

Yeah, absolutely.

531

: 00:27:33

100%.

532

: 00:27:34

It's the little things.

533

: 00:27:35

It's these small moments.

534

: 00:27:36

And I talked to a lot of men who are,

wonder like how to get more attention

535

: 00:27:40

from their wife, it's not like you

become, you're trying to be a good dad

536

: 00:27:43

, to get it's not transactional, right?

537

: 00:27:45

But when you bring value to your family,

when you're providing that level of love

538

: 00:27:52

and care to your child, like those are

the types of things that your partner

539

: 00:27:55

is going to notice and be grateful for.

540

: 00:27:59

And even just the act of saying,

Hey, I love you for that is I'm

541

: 00:28:04

sure that felt amazing in that

moment at three in the morning.

542

: 00:28:08

Yeah.

543

: 00:28:08

But it's also to your point.

544

: 00:28:11

It's also something she didn't have to do.

545

: 00:28:13

I feel like men that get

upset that their wife is not.

546

: 00:28:16

Present to them.

547

: 00:28:17

It's because they're present to their

kids all day long and they don't have

548

: 00:28:19

any energy left so if the least you can

do is give them 30 minutes to just Sit

549

: 00:28:27

and have coffee sit and read a book Watch

a trashy tv show because they just have

550

: 00:28:32

that itch like play with the kids for 30

minutes put the kids to bed that night

551

: 00:28:36

like do the dishes just almost said man

up but in a way like Partner up, right?

552

: 00:28:43

Like man up and show that you

are not above these daily tasks,

553

: 00:28:48

because if you weren't married and

you got to a certain age, you were

554

: 00:28:53

doing the dishes for yourself.

555

: 00:28:55

You are doing some of the

daily chores that you just

556

: 00:28:57

expect your wife to be doing.

557

: 00:28:59

So why do you think all of a sudden,

now that you have a marriage contract

558

: 00:29:02

in your hand, that you're off the hook?

559

: 00:29:04

It's just always been mind boggling to me.

560

: 00:29:07

But That's all another conversation.

561

: 00:29:10

That is a long podcast episode for sure.

562

: 00:29:12

Maybe we'll have you back

on down the road for that.

563

: 00:29:15

I'm wondering if you're willing

to talk about your faith.

564

: 00:29:17

Is that something that

we could talk about?

565

: 00:29:19

Sure.

566

: 00:29:20

So , tell the audience, tell us, what

role faith plays for you in your life,

567

: 00:29:25

how important it is to you and how it

maybe has helped shape you as a dad.

568

: 00:29:32

Yeah growing up I was a Roman Catholic

went to church every Sunday, altar

569

: 00:29:36

boy, taught Sunday school, youth group,

just that quintessential Catholic kid.

570

: 00:29:42

So of course people asked me to be

a priest, or to consider it, and

571

: 00:29:45

I said no, I know I want to be a

dad, I know I want to be married.

572

: 00:29:49

I don't know why, just a couple moments of

my childhood just made it really crystal

573

: 00:29:52

clear that God was calling me to marriage

someday and to have my own family.

574

: 00:29:56

So that was, off the cards.

575

: 00:29:59

Well, fell away from practicing

Catholicism and that kind of going

576

: 00:30:03

to mass and whatever in my twenties,

just because I was traveling a lot.

577

: 00:30:07

I didn't necessarily have a

faith based community to go to.

578

: 00:30:10

And to some extent I, I'm still

searching, but along the way

579

: 00:30:14

I, I studied a lot of Buddhism.

580

: 00:30:16

I was a social worker in Anchorage, Alaska

with a lot of Native Alaskans, so I joined

581

: 00:30:20

some sweat lodges just to get to know my

clients better and to get to figure out

582

: 00:30:24

how to advocate for them better as well.

583

: 00:30:26

So I've incorporated a lot of other

spiritual practices and traditions

584

: 00:30:30

into what I understand to be God

and, deeper, greater connectivity.

585

: 00:30:34

So if anything now, if you had to hold

me to it, I would say I'm more of a kind

586

: 00:30:38

of a humanist with spiritual tendencies.

587

: 00:30:41

Cause whether God exists or not,

like we can't ever know, right?

588

: 00:30:44

Like we have all sorts of conjecture, but

it doesn't matter if God exists for me.

589

: 00:30:48

It matters.

590

: 00:30:49

Are we treating each other good?

591

: 00:30:51

And kind.

592

: 00:30:52

Are we respecting each other

and supporting each other?

593

: 00:30:55

If your neighbor's struggling,

are you going to help them?

594

: 00:30:58

If you see somebody in the store

drop something, do you pick it up

595

: 00:31:01

and, make somebody's life a little

bit easier through your actions?

596

: 00:31:04

And for me, those kinds of moments,

those kinds of interactions are God

597

: 00:31:08

manifesting themselves in the world.

598

: 00:31:10

And so for my children

I don't always do this.

599

: 00:31:13

If I'm having a bad day, it's really hard,

but I try to, teach through my actions

600

: 00:31:17

and teach and demonstrate what God looks

like through the relationships that we

601

: 00:31:22

build in the communities that we have.

602

: 00:31:24

So hopefully that answers the

question, but that's about as

603

: 00:31:29

good of an answer that I can give.

604

: 00:31:30

Yet another probably hour

long podcast episode.

605

: 00:31:33

It could be, talking spirituality

and religion and faith.

606

: 00:31:36

But I was, yeah, I think for me,

It's a personal choice, right?

607

: 00:31:39

And everyone's entitled to that and

should be honored for their choice in

608

: 00:31:45

that, whatever they believe but I think

that you I grew up Catholic as well.

609

: 00:31:50

My mom actually was a nun before

she left the convent and married my

610

: 00:31:54

dad and decided to start a family.

611

: 00:31:56

She's still very religious.

612

: 00:32:00

She taught Catholic school

her most of her career.

613

: 00:32:04

So I grew up in a spiritual home, but I

agree with your main sentiment, which is,

614

: 00:32:10

The teachings that I learned were kindness

and, help thy neighbor and those types

615

: 00:32:15

of things I think are super important to

restore faith for some, people perhaps

616

: 00:32:19

who are walking the earth looking for it.

617

: 00:32:22

I always say, if you can provide hope

for someone today, if the only thing

618

: 00:32:29

you did was provide hope for one

person today, like that's a good day.

619

: 00:32:33

One, one little tip that I've learned

recently is to actually be present

620

: 00:32:37

in all of the rooms that you go to.

621

: 00:32:41

So when we talk about presence at home,

you can actually take that outside.

622

: 00:32:46

For example, if you're traveling,

you're in an airport, right?

623

: 00:32:50

Instead of a lot, you, I'm sure Brian,

you've been to many airports in your time.

624

: 00:32:55

It's, it's a lot of people that

look, looking at their phones.

625

: 00:32:58

Yeah.

626

: 00:32:58

Distracted.

627

: 00:32:59

Earbuds are in.

628

: 00:33:00

And that's fine.

629

: 00:33:01

And of course, a lot of

sensory issues there.

630

: 00:33:04

And not everybody wants to talk to

strangers, and I understand that.

631

: 00:33:09

But if this is for you, or if

you've never tried this before and

632

: 00:33:12

it sounds appealing, next time you

go, just pay attention to people.

633

: 00:33:16

See what they're doing.

634

: 00:33:18

See if anybody needs help.

635

: 00:33:19

See if anybody needs, even

if it's a worker there.

636

: 00:33:24

They might be busy, right?

637

: 00:33:26

Distracted by their work.

638

: 00:33:28

If you notice them working

really hard, hey, great job.

639

: 00:33:33

I see you're doing a great job.

640

: 00:33:34

Those little things, those little

interactions with other humans, you don't

641

: 00:33:39

know what difference you can make by

doing something that takes you literally

642

: 00:33:42

three seconds to notice somebody else.

643

: 00:33:44

People like to be noticed.

644

: 00:33:45

I like to be noticed.

645

: 00:33:46

I think it's a human thing to,

to have someone notice you.

646

: 00:33:50

what you're doing, or ask you how you're

doing, truly wanting to know how are

647

: 00:33:54

you, not the informal kind of, I don't

really care what your answer is, but

648

: 00:33:57

truly, like, how are you doing today?

649

: 00:34:00

Or, hey good job.

650

: 00:34:02

I think those little interactions

mean a lot to other people.

651

: 00:34:05

So just something to consider

being present in rooms where you

652

: 00:34:08

maybe normally aren't present.

653

: 00:34:11

Just try it, see what happens.

654

: 00:34:12

But I know we're getting short on time.

655

: 00:34:14

Brian, I know you have a hard stop at two.

656

: 00:34:17

This is usually by just historically

the time of the episode where

657

: 00:34:21

Eric has an amazing question.

658

: 00:34:23

So I'm going to put him on the spot and

see it, see if he's got one for you.

659

: 00:34:29

I do have a question.

660

: 00:34:30

I have a thought to what you were talking

about, these little acts of kindness.

661

: 00:34:34

I have a saying that I used.

662

: 00:34:35

To remind me, I should

call it casual kindness.

663

: 00:34:39

Just a reminder to

practice casual kindness.

664

: 00:34:41

I thought about that a while ago,

I was looking at a, I guess some

665

: 00:34:45

YouTube video or some news article

about people that are just being mean.

666

: 00:34:48

I remember thinking, man, these

casual acts of cruelty, how

667

: 00:34:52

they just ruin someone's day.

668

: 00:34:54

And then I lined that up with my

typical day when I'm out of the

669

: 00:34:56

house, I'm really introverted and

boxed into my little head space.

670

: 00:35:02

And I don't, I'm just

in my own little world.

671

: 00:35:04

When I go to the grocery store

and I put together, it's man, I

672

: 00:35:07

need to practice casual kindness

and just get outta my head.

673

: 00:35:11

Just practice casual kindness.

674

: 00:35:12

That just reminded me when, I

love that when you were talking.

675

: 00:35:16

Yeah.

676

: 00:35:16

Love.

677

: 00:35:17

I love that.

678

: 00:35:19

I love it too.

679

: 00:35:20

The question I had was you said in the

very beginning you're talking about

680

: 00:35:23

being present and you said being present

physically mentally and spiritually.

681

: 00:35:29

And I've heard of being physically and

mentally present makes perfect sense.

682

: 00:35:34

Spiritually hits a little bit deeper.

683

: 00:35:36

I was just wondering if you could

expand on that a little bit.

684

: 00:35:40

Yeah, So on the side I still

coach dads in various capacities.

685

: 00:35:44

One of which is I'm a certified spiritual

director, which is therapy, but it's

686

: 00:35:48

more like how, like being a companion

to someone as they are going through

687

: 00:35:52

a spiritual crisis of some kind.

688

: 00:35:54

And for me, it's working with a lot

of dads on what is the grounding

689

: 00:35:59

that the relationship you have with

God or what you believe to be God?

690

: 00:36:02

How does that grounding in

the relationship inform your

691

: 00:36:05

relationships with others?

692

: 00:36:08

And a lot of it, it sums, I

love that casual kindness.

693

: 00:36:11

I'm gonna have to use it with

some of my, with some of my

694

: 00:36:13

clients, but I think the spiritual

presence is on that deeper level.

695

: 00:36:17

Do you notice when your child's

having an emotionally bad day?

696

: 00:36:21

and what's causing it.

697

: 00:36:23

I would often ask dads when I was feeling

a bit more feisty or in an instigator

698

: 00:36:29

kind of mode, I'd say great, you just

earned a seven figure salary this year.

699

: 00:36:33

Do you know why your child has

the best friend that they do?

700

: 00:36:37

And if a dad can't answer that, then

it doesn't matter that they made

701

: 00:36:40

seven figures or that they are the

CEO or president of, Kingdom Come.

702

: 00:36:44

If they don't know deeply and

carefully their child's day to

703

: 00:36:49

day, then they're missing out.

704

: 00:36:51

Not only are they not living up, in my

opinion, to some of the responsibilities

705

: 00:36:54

of fatherhood, but they're just missing

out on so many tiny joys and the building

706

: 00:36:59

blocks of what make their children

tick and what make their children come

707

: 00:37:03

to the conclusions that they come to.

708

: 00:37:06

And I think that's that

spiritual connection that comes

709

: 00:37:10

from the being very present.

710

: 00:37:13

And I don't think any

of us ever get to it.

711

: 00:37:15

every day.

712

: 00:37:16

Sometimes we're just so busy and I get it.

713

: 00:37:18

But it's, saying prayers at night.

714

: 00:37:20

If that's what you do with your children,

it's sitting in before dinner, sharing

715

: 00:37:24

what you're grateful for that day.

716

: 00:37:26

We would often do that when the girls

were much younger, instead of saying

717

: 00:37:29

grace or, singing a song before dinner,

we would just go around the circle

718

: 00:37:33

and say, what's one thing that we're

really happy for or grateful for.

719

: 00:37:36

And, when they were little, they'd

say cookies or something silly, fine.

720

: 00:37:41

For them, that was important.

721

: 00:37:42

But as they've gotten older, they've

said friendships, and deeper, more

722

: 00:37:46

esoteric kind of concepts and to be

able to be present to respond and.

723

: 00:37:52

And had a deeper conversation

around that is, is huge.

724

: 00:37:57

During the pandemic, George Floyd

was murdered and my daughter's best

725

: 00:38:00

friend is a black kid down the street

and she had some really critical

726

: 00:38:04

questions for me about black people

and why they were being killed and

727

: 00:38:08

what would happen to her best friends.

728

: 00:38:10

And.

729

: 00:38:12

It caught me off guard, but

thankfully I was prepared for it.

730

: 00:38:15

My wife and I were like, okay, we gotta,

do some research and figure out what

731

: 00:38:18

are we going to tell our kids about this

critical moment we're living through.

732

: 00:38:21

But again, if I wasn't spiritually

present, if I hadn't built those

733

: 00:38:25

connections with my child, then she

wouldn't ask me, she'd ask somebody

734

: 00:38:29

else, my wife or our neighbor, because

they may have a friendship or something.

735

: 00:38:34

So yeah Those are just some

illustrations, but I think it

736

: 00:38:37

can take many forms for sure.

737

: 00:38:40

Yeah.

738

: 00:38:40

Thank you for that question though.

739

: 00:38:42

That's great.

740

: 00:38:44

Yeah.

741

: 00:38:44

Great question, Eric.

742

: 00:38:46

always have a great question.

743

: 00:38:48

That's why I want you to ask more of them.

744

: 00:38:49

But so good ones take a while to stew.

745

: 00:38:51

You got to get on those good ones.

746

: 00:38:53

That's right.

747

: 00:38:53

That's right.

748

: 00:38:54

That's right.

749

: 00:38:55

Quality over quantity.

750

: 00:38:56

Yeah, for sure.

751

: 00:38:57

That, I think that's

Eric's motto for sure.

752

: 00:39:00

But I'll take it.

753

: 00:39:00

I'll take it.

754

: 00:39:01

It's a really valuable

add , to our conversation.

755

: 00:39:04

So we're going to wrap up here, Brian,

I got to ask you just a last question.

756

: 00:39:07

I always feel like I never have

enough time with all of my guests.

757

: 00:39:11

So again, thank you for coming on,

spending a little bit of time with

758

: 00:39:14

us today and sharing your wisdom.

759

: 00:39:16

But let's talk about

your kitchen adventures.

760

: 00:39:18

Cause I know that went

on a high note here.

761

: 00:39:21

Tell me like what's going on

with the kids and and what you

762

: 00:39:24

guys are doing in the kitchen.

763

: 00:39:26

Yeah, we just love to bake.

764

: 00:39:28

I'm, my job in the house is all things

food, keeping the kitchen clean,

765

: 00:39:32

getting the groceries, whatever.

766

: 00:39:33

And we're going through some.

767

: 00:39:34

We have and we'll continue to go through

picky eating phases because that's life.

768

: 00:39:38

But for us, it's, making

pancakes and waffles.

769

: 00:39:41

It's learning how to cut things with

sharp knives rather than butter knives.

770

: 00:39:46

And the ultimate is my mom has

made banana bread for her entire

771

: 00:39:51

life and it's a great recipe.

772

: 00:39:52

And we just experiment to see

if a little extra sugar or maybe

773

: 00:39:57

using whole wheat flour instead

of white flour, or, Sometimes our

774

: 00:40:01

creations end in a total failure.

775

: 00:40:02

Sometimes they're magical successes.

776

: 00:40:04

But but again whether it's in the kitchen

or hiking or somewhere else, I think

777

: 00:40:10

it's the fact that I'm just taking the

time to be present with my girls and

778

: 00:40:14

allowing us to have fun with something.

779

: 00:40:16

as life giving as food.

780

: 00:40:18

Whether I end up eating more of it or

them, it just depends on what we make.

781

: 00:40:23

But yeah, I call them adventures because

disasters just has a negative tone.

782

: 00:40:28

And even if it ends in disaster, it

was still an adventure getting there.

783

: 00:40:31

So I'll take it as an adventure any day.

784

: 00:40:34

Yeah, for sure.

785

: 00:40:35

I think that brings up a great way to

end the episode, which is, spending

786

: 00:40:38

time with our kids, which I think a

lot of us tell a false story, right?

787

: 00:40:44

I know I've told myself this before.

788

: 00:40:46

I don't have enough time.

789

: 00:40:47

I'm too busy.

790

: 00:40:48

And we do that for a lot of

things, not just our kids.

791

: 00:40:51

The more time you can

spend with your kids.

792

: 00:40:53

Yeah.

793

: 00:40:53

They're only young ones, and I know

this sounds cliche, but it is true.

794

: 00:40:57

And like I said earlier in the

episode, you only have right now.

795

: 00:41:01

You're not really guaranteed tomorrow.

796

: 00:41:03

You just aren't hate to say that.

797

: 00:41:05

I hate to, I said, I was going to end

the episode on a high and I'm talking

798

: 00:41:08

about dying, but it's the truth.

799

: 00:41:11

You're talking about making

the life it's fullest.

800

: 00:41:13

And so don't hesitate.

801

: 00:41:15

I was just, sorry, I cut you off, but

I'll just say, I was talking with someone

802

: 00:41:18

yesterday about the work I do with icy

stars, where we're training the future of

803

: 00:41:23

technology with adults in the inner city.

804

: 00:41:26

And we often say we are not.

805

: 00:41:28

We take tech consumers and turn

them into tech creators, right?

806

: 00:41:32

We're giving people the skills

to create their future rather

807

: 00:41:35

than just consume constant.

808

: 00:41:37

Data and it's a special space and my

girls have gone with me to see it.

809

: 00:41:41

And I told them like, don't wait

to create a special space though.

810

: 00:41:43

Don't wait till you're old enough to

go to that college or that high school.

811

: 00:41:47

Sports club, like those will be there.

812

: 00:41:50

But the journey is so critical.

813

: 00:41:51

So yeah, be present in the now.

814

: 00:41:53

I love it.

815

: 00:41:54

I love that.

816

: 00:41:55

Create, don't create more, consume less.

817

: 00:41:57

Yeah.

818

: 00:41:58

Yeah.

819

: 00:41:58

That's amazing.

820

: 00:41:59

Yeah.

821

: 00:42:00

So we'll put everything in the

liner notes so you can find

822

: 00:42:02

Brian wherever you need him.

823

: 00:42:04

If you need some, to talk, you need

a spiritual advisor, you need just to

824

: 00:42:08

talk about being a dad we'll put all

the contact info, but Brian, if you

825

: 00:42:12

want to just say it, for the record

here, like where, what's the best way

826

: 00:42:15

to find you and reach out to you and

find, more about the work you're doing

827

: 00:42:18

with IC Stars, fathering together

or to even to buy, I see your book.

828

: 00:42:22

Okay.

829

: 00:42:22

Behind you, they're fathering together.

830

: 00:42:24

So where can they find that?

831

: 00:42:26

Yeah.

832

: 00:42:26

Social media wise, LinkedIn

is the best way to find me.

833

: 00:42:29

And then just Brian at fathering together.

834

: 00:42:32

org is the simplest, most direct

email for folks to remember, so yeah,

835

: 00:42:38

LinkedIn or by email you'll reach me.

836

: 00:42:41

Awesome.

837

: 00:42:42

Thanks again, Brian.

838

: 00:42:43

We'll talk soon.

839

: 00:42:44

I'm sure.