Smashing the Patriarchy: Leading with Self-Awareness and Emotional Intelligence with Jeremy Stockdale

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All right, welcome to Dad's Interrupted.

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I'm Fred Van Ryper, host of the show.

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I'm here with Eric Moore, co

host of the show, although

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he doesn't like to admit it.

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And, my guest today, I'm super

excited, to have on the show.

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Jeremy Stockdale is someone who I

actually was introduced to on LinkedIn.

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Through his amazing every Wednesday

posts that he's been doing for over

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a year now called on Wednesdays,

we smashed the patriarchy, which

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was inspired by his daughter.

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So I'll have him share that story

a little bit later, but Jeremy

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to first, thanks for coming on.

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Thanks for sharing your time with us.

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No, thanks for Frederic and for inviting

me and great to meet you too, Eric.

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I've really enjoyed our interactions on

LinkedIn and it's great to have, more

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men involved in these kind of topics.

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I run a company called Ylead.

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My first career was spent in banking, so

nothing to do with what I'm doing now.

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I discovered that what really

ignited my passion was leadership.

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And now I find myself increasingly

operating in the gender equity type

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of space because I just believe we had

more female leaders, but more Leaders

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generally behaving in a more balanced way,

the world would be a much better place.

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Organizations would function better.

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So that's what I'm trying

to do, is to create greater

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gender equity through allyship.

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I love that.

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Can you just tell the people, a little

bit more about yourself, about YLead?

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And also that I know you're a dad,

so talk about your kids as well.

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Yeah, I'll probably start with the

kids because my, my, I've got, I'm

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very lucky I've got a boy and a

girl, well, a woman and a man now.

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So my daughter is 21 and she's at

university studying modern languages.

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And my son is 17, later this year.

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And he's he's left school now because

it wasn't really working for him.

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But he's going to go to college in

September to do music technology.

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And yeah, I've become much more

aware now that's just the very gendered

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ways that the children are raised.

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Um, and yeah, why did I set up YLead back

in: 2020

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my first corporate career after 27 years.

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And I just wanted to help more leaders

lead with a sense of, of purpose

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and passion and compassion, really,

because I think too often leaders

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like I was, are accidental managers.

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I think the stats say 87 percent of

people managers are, are accidentally

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placed there because they've got technical

skills and they get given people.

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And I was one of those.

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And so for the first 18 months,

I was pretty hopeless, really,

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leading a large group of people.

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But as I started to just get a little bit

better and learn a few things, I found

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it, I began to find it really rewarding.

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And the more rewarding I found it,

the more I've got some point where

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I thought this is a real privilege.

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And this is what I want to do.

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So that's what I did for the last

15 years of my career in Barclays.

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It was, I led a number of large

teams across the UK and Africa

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and just thought this is.

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This is what I want to do, and I

left because I thought I could have

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greater impacts on the world by helping

other leaders to lead with that same

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sense of purpose and compassion.

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You know, why do you lead as

opposed to how do you lead?

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This is much more important.

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That's what people will follow.

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So true.

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And being a dad, you are, we talk about

this on some of the other episodes.

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You are a leader if you're, and if

you're, and if you're not confident

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in that role, which, you know, I, I

question my ability every day as, as my

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kids are growing up in different ages,

but trying to just trying to be the best

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dad I can be, it takes some leadership

qualities, um, And being in tune with

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that, I think is super important.

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I always, let's back up because I

always start the podcast with the first

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question for every guest is what does

it mean to you to be an interrupted dad?

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I think, yeah, I mean, my, my

own reflection is I look back

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on my leadership career and,

you know, raising two children.

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I look at my kids and I think

I've done a pretty good job of

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raising two beautiful young adults.

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You know, they really are wonderful.

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So you don't tend to

look at what's happened.

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Um, they're great kids.

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I think though that a large amount of the

credit goes to my wife, as opposed to me.

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There are lots of times when I wasn't

present, even when I was actually present

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physically, perhaps I wasn't mentally.

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Um, and I think I often think now

from a leadership perspective.

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The way I treated my colleagues around

me with real kind of compassion and

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understanding and curiosity and patience.

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I wish I'd done the same with my kids.

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Um, I look back, you know, happy

childhood and love to see them grow up.

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Every single age got better and better.

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But it's, I probably a lot of dads do this

when they get to the stage that I'm at and

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I think your kids are a bit younger than

mine, but I think I wish I knew what I

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know now, you know, I wish I knew what I

know now and, um, so I'm trying to apply

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some of that in, in some of the work I do.

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And, you know, it's never too

late as my kids now growing up,

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it's never too late to have a

great relationship with the kids.

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So yeah, just an interesting

reflection for me.

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I probably treated my work colleagues.

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With more compassion than I did my kids.

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Yeah.

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I appreciate you sharing that.

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Obviously very self aware, a vulnerable

thing to share and admit out loud.

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And I think we, as dads, the point

of this podcast is to inspire some of

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the younger dads that hopefully are

listening to say, Hey, you know what?

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You can start.

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Earlier than we are starting.

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Right?

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You could do, yeah, you can do it now.

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Start that journey now to be present.

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I think being present is a gift in and

of itself, for us, and for our kids.

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But it's also a gift for us.

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I think about that because I

struggled with that for quite a bit.

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And you're right, my kids

are a little bit younger.

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I have a 17-year-old daughter

going into senior year next year.

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Hmm.

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And today was the last day of school for

my son in third grade, so he'll be, uh,

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fourth grader next year but , there was a

period of time where I was busy at work.

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I was bringing work home with me.

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I had my phone right next to me.

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I was on my phone in the living room

while my kids were not even necessarily

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asking for my attention, but I was missing

out on those moments of being present.

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Yes.

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And.

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And when I really reflect back on that.

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And this may sound, I don't know, like foo

foo, but like, I'm not promised tomorrow,

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none of us are promised tomorrow.

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And so that could have been the

last day I spent with them, and I'm

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sitting there staring at my phone,

worried about work, or a work email,

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or perhaps like some stupid social

media, you know, video, whatever.

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And there's times and places for those

things, too, because sometimes you

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can use those as moments to kind of

Decompress and have stress relief.

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And that's, you know, everyone

should be doing that as well.

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But when my kids are in a room now,

I make sure I'm not using my phone.

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I make sure I'm present.

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And that has been a huge game changer.

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Just that alone, nothing else.

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Just to be present and listen and

hear them and look at them and

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appreciate their beauty and be

grateful for the things that are there.

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I think it's a great way of framing it.

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, I'll just come back on what you said.

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I think that's a really good, you

know, I don't look back with guilt.

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It's not something I particularly feel.

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I think I'll, you know, we

had a great relationship.

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We still have a great relationship.

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And, um, my kids grew up and one

thing they didn't know fundamentally

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that they knew they were loved.

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And cared for.

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I mean, that's, that's, there's no

question, but the way you just framed

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it is a beautiful way of putting it.

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And I think that if any parents, you

know, perhaps younger kids can listen

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to one thing, it's what you just said.

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It's like, even just you're in

a room with them, be with them,

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you know, be mentally with them.

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And that's where perhaps

I wasn't sometimes.

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And just, yeah, the phone,

it's like a real, you know,

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it gets in a way, doesn't it?

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Just put that to one side

and just, just be with them.

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Um, I think it can make

a massive difference.

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So a bit late for me, not for others.

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That's right.

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That's right.

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So let's talk.

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I guess we'll, let's dive it

right into to on Wednesdays.

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We smashed the patriarchy because that

to me is how I came to know who you are.

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Um, and so I want to know more about,

I, I kind of do know the story about

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how that started, but I want you

to share for the people that don't

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know, how did that start for you?

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Why did that start?

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Who inspired you to do that?

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And what have you learned?

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Probably, that's a loaded question because

you probably have learned so much, but

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maybe the top couple of things that

are on your mind today of what you have

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learned from that journey of posting,

in, was it March or April of: 2023

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Yeah, April last year, yeah.

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Well, I guess I'll go back a little

bit because the backstory is that

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I, When I had my corporate career, I

thought I was one of the good guys.

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When I left Barclays in 2019, I looked

back and thought, I generally led well,

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and I'd always had a good gender balance,

not always, but certainly in the last

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half of my career, good gender balance,

my team sponsored and mentored women, and

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I thought I got it, genuinely, as a man.

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And then something happened in 2021,

um, when a woman was killed in the UK.

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So she was abducted, raped, and

murdered by a serving police officer.

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Her name was Sarah Everard.

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Caused a massive outcry,

understandably, but particularly

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from women saying, we're never safe.

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How could we ever be safe?

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And, and I was really horrified, but

I also felt really helpless as a man.

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What can I do?

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And I spoke to someone and said, what

could I do to be a better male ally?

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And she said, read two books.

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And the two books were Everyday

Sexism by Laura Bates and Invisible

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Women by Caroline Carrello Perez.

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And I know that sexism exists, and

I know that there are data biases in

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the world designed by and for men, but

I, it was just, I had no idea of the

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scale, you know, just reading those

stories about the everyday things that

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women have to put up with when they're

never really, they have to be on their

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guard, it's like a sense of being alert.

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In just in meetings with certain men or

just when they're walking home or whatever

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it might be girls going to school in a

school school uniform being wolf whistled

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by bro men just stuff like that i thought

i had no idea it was quite as endemic

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and then caroline's book it just reveals

so many stats that blow my mind the one

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i often share and funny enough was just

shared on the panel just now, um, women

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are 47 percent more likely to suffer a

serious injury in a road traffic accident

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because even to this day, all the safety

features in cars are designed around a

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male, a crash test dummy that is modeled

on the male body, which blows my mind.

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And whenever I share it, it

blows the minds of most people,

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particularly men who hear that.

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Well, that can't be true today, can it?

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But just think about seatbelts.

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You know, who thought they were a

good idea for the female anatomy?

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So, um, so it's things like that.

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That really opened my eyes.

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So I started reading loads more

books, speaking to hundreds of women.

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And it got me on a little bit of a journey

myself and it was actually the posts

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were inspired by my daughter who's got a

t shirt exactly like this one that says

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on Wednesdays we smash the patriarchy

and I eventually persuaded let me write

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a little bit of post about it just do a

little interview with her about why she

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wears a t shirt what it means to her.

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And he got a good reaction.

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So the following week, I just expanded

and I wrote about how the patriarchy

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specifically damages women, which

was very much my going in position.

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I then the following week

wrote about how it damages men.

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And I've just carried

on posting ever since.

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And every single week I learn more,

I meet more interesting people.

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I've met people like yourself, you've

educated me on different aspects, got

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me to think differently about things.

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And it's been one of the best things

I've done for my own education.

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And also for the network that I've

built on what I think if I could

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sum up two or three things, I've

really learned through that time.

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The first one is really clear to me

that gender equity is something that

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fundamentally will benefit us all and so

much the discourse so much the narrative

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that we see around this is divisive.

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An awful lot of men.

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particularly men like us,

middle aged white men.

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A lot of, a lot of us feel very kind

of disenfranchised and we're the,

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you know, there's a research that 59

percent of men thinks gender equality

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has gone too far, um, in the UK, 59%.

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And they're the disadvantaged ones

now, which of course we know is

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nonsense, but that's based on the

narrative that people read in the media.

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So part of the challenge is to reclaim

the narrative and write a different one

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about, no, this is good for everyone.

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So that's one of the first things.

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The second thing which is linked to

that is that my biggest challenge, but

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I think the biggest opportunity we have

is to get more men involved in these

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discussions, you know, having vulnerable

discussions, be willing to learn,

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finding out about, you know, how the

patriarchy can hold them back and leave

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these norms and, and, and start to just.

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Yeah, learn different ways, unlearned

most importantly, and that's why

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I think some of the work you're

doing Frederick is, is really vital

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because there are so many myths about

masculinity that we still conform to.

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I think if you go back to the Second

World War, the world has evolved

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massively for women since then.

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Women going out to work, having

more opportunities, financial

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freedom, all rightly so.

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Still got a long, long way to go.

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But I don't think men have

evolved in quite the same way.

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And that means a lot of men now

feel, what is my role in society?

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Cause it used to be Breadwinner.

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Um, but it's not anymore.

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So what, what, what, where do I fit in?

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And unless we can help men sort of

have a more rounded, um, view of

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themselves, we're going to continue to

have the problems that we're facing.

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And then you get bad actors

come in like Andrew Tate.

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You say, come on boys, this

is how you're supposed to be.

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And it's like so destructive.

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So, um, I think that this is something

that benefits all of us and we, we

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got to find a way of getting more

men engaged and encouraging me to

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do seem to be more coming forward.

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Can you expand a little bit more on what

your daughter said in that interview?

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Why it means so much to her?

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Yeah, I think, I mean, she started

off by saying, I'll try and

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remember her exact words, there

are three questions to answer.

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The first one is, you

know, why do you do it?

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And she just basically talked about

how, you know, the patriarchy is an

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antiquated system that oppresses women

and she doesn't particularly like that

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as a young woman entering the world.

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And so, yeah, something she feels

she needs to speak out about.

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The second question is around what

reaction she gets, and I think the

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interesting thing was that she said

it gets lots of interest, you know,

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people are generally quite curious.

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It'll sometimes induce some kind of

humor, some good reaction, but she

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said there's lots of interesting

conversations in the back of it.

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And the final question I asked

was, you know, why Wednesdays?

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And she said, well, it's my quietest day.

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So, fair enough.

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It's like, it's a really good response.

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But, um, it, I mean, as far as I know,

she still, she still kind of wears it.

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I don't know if she

wears it every Wednesday.

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But yeah, I think she's, I mean,

from a very early age, we talked to.

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Phoebe in a way that, um, we tried hard

without being that consciously to not,

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um, conditioner along a lot of the kind

of the ways that the girls and boys are

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sort of diverge from a fairly early age.

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And when I read Everyday Sexism, the

next person that read it after me

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was Phoebe, and we've had lots of

conversations about that and about what

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it means and how it can affect change.

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So I think she's reasonably

well aware of these things.

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And I would say she's a

very, um, strong feminist.

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I mean, she's got very

strong feministic views.

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And, um, which I think is great.

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I think a lot of social change is going

to come from the younger generation.

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Yeah.

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I, of course can only speak from

my own lens, my own perspective.

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Um, there's a lot of fear around this

idea of smashing the patriarchy for men.

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Uh, and I, again, speaking just

from my experience, , my initial

299

: 00:15:53

thought when I first heard that was

definitely one of fear, you know?

300

: 00:15:58

Yeah.

301

: 00:15:58

Like, like, what does that mean?

302

: 00:16:00

What, like, to your point,

what is my role then?

303

: 00:16:02

Right?

304

: 00:16:03

Not, and that's just like very

surface level, like first time I

305

: 00:16:06

was introduced to that concept.

306

: 00:16:08

The more I learn, the more I unlearn,

the more I read about, the more I listen

307

: 00:16:12

to people like yourself, and do my own

research, and really form my own opinions

308

: 00:16:17

on this, the more I do lean way heavier to

the side of it's damaging for all of us.

309

: 00:16:24

And I, and I would, there may be people

listening That are like me five years

310

: 00:16:30

ago that are afraid of what it means

to quote unquote smash the patriarchy.

311

: 00:16:35

And again, the point of this podcast

is not to tell you what to think.

312

: 00:16:40

It's to.

313

: 00:16:41

Talk about these issues and have us all

be learning together and thinking deeper

314

: 00:16:46

on what is the best way to go about

these things and can we bring more men

315

: 00:16:52

into the conversation and have some open

conversations about how they're feeling?

316

: 00:16:58

Which is a struggle for

men to even talk about.

317

: 00:17:00

Part of the patriarchy damage is that

men are not comfortable talking about

318

: 00:17:04

how they feel, about their emotions.

319

: 00:17:06

But I would implore the listeners

to say, Hey, you know what?

320

: 00:17:10

Let me put my fear aside.

321

: 00:17:12

Let me put it aside for now and

let me just really ask questions.

322

: 00:17:15

Let me be curious.

323

: 00:17:17

I find that curiosity is something that.

324

: 00:17:20

is so valuable when you're uncomfortable.

325

: 00:17:23

We have these uncomfortable conversations

when we talk about racism, when

326

: 00:17:27

we talk about patriarchy, when we

talk about gender equity, when we

327

: 00:17:30

talk in our own relationships with

our partners about a conflict.

328

: 00:17:34

It's an uncomfortable thing to sit in

a room where if you're uncomfortable

329

: 00:17:41

in a room with people that you're

either familiar with or unfamiliar

330

: 00:17:44

with, your body, your brain is

telling you, I just want to leave.

331

: 00:17:48

I just want to escape.

332

: 00:17:49

I want to go be comfortable again.

333

: 00:17:51

That's a normal human reaction.

334

: 00:17:55

The more that you can.

335

: 00:17:58

Get uncomfortable.

336

: 00:17:59

The saying is, get comfortable

being uncomfortable, right?

337

: 00:18:03

The more you can do that truly, I believe,

the better version of yourself will come.

338

: 00:18:08

And so, put the fear aside,

and ask some questions.

339

: 00:18:13

Ask yourself some questions,

ask other people some questions.

340

: 00:18:16

Doesn't mean you have to

agree with them, that's okay.

341

: 00:18:18

We can have discord.

342

: 00:18:19

I think we've forgotten how to disagree

in this country, in the States, and maybe

343

: 00:18:23

over there as well maybe in the world,

having disagreements is totally fine.

344

: 00:18:26

I don't necessarily agree with

everything you believe, Jeremy.

345

: 00:18:30

It's, and you don't have to,

and we don't have to agree.

346

: 00:18:33

We can still love each other.

347

: 00:18:34

We can still talk.

348

: 00:18:35

We can still have conversations

and leave better for it.

349

: 00:18:39

And I think that's super important to

remember when we talk about difficult

350

: 00:18:43

issues like this, where, where one,

if we're talking about men and women.

351

: 00:18:50

And often, like you said,

divisive, like men versus women.

352

: 00:18:54

To me, it's not men versus women.

353

: 00:18:56

It's all of us against a system of

oppression that is damaging to all of us.

354

: 00:19:02

And how can we do better, collectively,

for as many of us as possible?

355

: 00:19:08

Continuing these masculinity myths,

perpetuating these falsehoods, these

356

: 00:19:14

lies that, Boys have to be a certain way.

357

: 00:19:16

Men have to be a certain way.

358

: 00:19:17

And same for women, yep.

359

: 00:19:19

You know, what are we

really telling our kids?

360

: 00:19:21

If we're still raising them

that way, that they have to fit

361

: 00:19:24

inside a narrow definition of

what it means to be who they are.

362

: 00:19:29

Yeah.

363

: 00:19:30

Instead of just being

their authentic selves.

364

: 00:19:33

Something you said around

curiosity, I completely agree with.

365

: 00:19:37

And it ties up a lot of these things.

366

: 00:19:38

When I do work with companies

around allyship, or actually now

367

: 00:19:43

it might be inclusive leadership.

368

: 00:19:44

The very first trait is curiosity.

369

: 00:19:48

Just starting to understand about

the issues and curiosity has been an

370

: 00:19:50

interesting thing for me because I

always used to, I didn't really think

371

: 00:19:53

about it deeply, but learning stuff.

372

: 00:19:56

was almost like hurdles I had to overcome.

373

: 00:19:58

I had to do O levels, then A levels

at school to get into university.

374

: 00:20:01

Then I had to pass my degree.

375

: 00:20:03

Then I had to do banking exams.

376

: 00:20:05

Then I chose to do an MBA.

377

: 00:20:06

So I kind of put in a bit of effort to

that because it was something that I

378

: 00:20:09

chose myself, but it's still a hurdle.

379

: 00:20:10

Once it was done, it was done.

380

: 00:20:12

What I've discovered now, since I started

reading those books and I started to go

381

: 00:20:15

into this stuff and find there's a whole

new world I didn't really understand, you

382

: 00:20:19

know, I've been flying blind for 51 years,

but now my, Eyes are a bit more open.

383

: 00:20:24

I'm curious about everything.

384

: 00:20:26

I find I'm just really curious

about different things.

385

: 00:20:30

I mean, not everything to be honest,

but just I've got this much more

386

: 00:20:33

open minded view of the world and

almost treat it with a sense of awe.

387

: 00:20:37

There's so much to learn every single

day, you know, and if I find out that

388

: 00:20:40

I'm wrong about something, that's okay,

because then tomorrow I'll be less wrong.

389

: 00:20:44

It's not okay to stay wrong, but

you know, um, trying every night

390

: 00:20:48

to sleep a bit, that's stupid.

391

: 00:20:50

And, um, And I think what it also does

though, back to your point, if you can

392

: 00:20:55

approach conversation with curiosity,

with a curious mind, so if someone says

393

: 00:21:01

something confrontational, says something

you violently disagree with or actually

394

: 00:21:04

is offensive, that's interesting, I

wonder why they're saying that, rather

395

: 00:21:09

than going into an immediate defensive

mode, it's interesting you think that,

396

: 00:21:13

and approach it with curiosity, it

just opens up so many possibilities.

397

: 00:21:18

and I remember when I first started

to post, before I started doing my

398

: 00:21:21

weekly posts, I started to get more

vocal on social media about gender

399

: 00:21:24

equity and I, there were times when I

would see a man maybe write a comment.

400

: 00:21:30

Some guy wrote, he's got a lot of

followers, uh, and he wrote a comment

401

: 00:21:33

about the fact that the reason why

you've got people like Andrew Tate

402

: 00:21:37

is because of radical feminism.

403

: 00:21:39

That's what's causing it.

404

: 00:21:40

That's what's causing it.

405

: 00:21:41

craziness.

406

: 00:21:42

And of course, I laid into him.

407

: 00:21:44

And if I'm honest, at that point,

I was a bit of a dick, really.

408

: 00:21:48

It's almost like I did, like a reformed

smoker, I suddenly learned some stuff.

409

: 00:21:51

And I thought, you know,

smoking is terrible.

410

: 00:21:53

It's like, you know, it's

like saving misogyny.

411

: 00:21:56

And it didn't really help because all that

happened is I came in and attacked him.

412

: 00:22:00

He attacked back and it went

back and forth for a while

413

: 00:22:02

and a few others piled in.

414

: 00:22:04

All it did was create more division.

415

: 00:22:06

So eventually I kind of realized that

wasn't a particularly worthwhile approach.

416

: 00:22:10

And so now even with people I really

disagree with and people who might say

417

: 00:22:13

offensive things on my post or attack me

on my post, I'll just try and approach

418

: 00:22:18

it with a little bit of curiosity.

419

: 00:22:19

And actually what it does, it takes a lot

of the defensiveness away from me as well.

420

: 00:22:24

An awful lot of the way

we were conditioned.

421

: 00:22:26

I mean, you get a mention

about boys showing emotions.

422

: 00:22:29

Someone told me that I've connected with

again on LinkedIn told me that from the

423

: 00:22:32

age of six boys have been conditioned.

424

: 00:22:36

There's only one really acceptable

emotion they can display and that's anger.

425

: 00:22:40

Which is so heartbreaking, isn't it?

426

: 00:22:42

And by the flip side, by the age of

seven or eight, girls have had 30 percent

427

: 00:22:46

of their innate confidence eradicated.

428

: 00:22:49

And by the time they're into their tweens,

it's kind of dropped by that two thirds.

429

: 00:22:53

You know, so there's all of these kind of

things where From a very early age, we,

430

: 00:22:57

we, we, you know, kids are conditioned.

431

: 00:22:59

And I can even think back, a story I've

told a few times, that when I used to

432

: 00:23:02

go away with work, you know, let's say

my kids were, you know, they're still

433

: 00:23:05

quite young, so let's say Toby might

have been six or seven, Phoebe was 10

434

: 00:23:09

or 11, and I would, if I was gonna be

away for a few nights, I'd say, right,

435

: 00:23:12

Toby, you know, I'm gonna be away for

a few nights, you're the man of the

436

: 00:23:15

house now, look after the girls and

be a big boy, all that kind of stuff.

437

: 00:23:18

And I know it's all very harmless and

it's kind of sweet in a way but actually

438

: 00:23:23

what I'm saying is by default, he's the

leader and yet he's got a four year old

439

: 00:23:27

sister who's way more capable, far more

likely to keep everyone alive than Toby,

440

: 00:23:33

who at that point couldn't really tie his

shoelaces properly until he was eight.

441

: 00:23:37

And, and it's like, it's ridiculous that

gender stuff that we do that kind of just.

442

: 00:23:42

Creeps into people's psyches.

443

: 00:23:43

So I look back now and think,

What the fuck was I doing?

444

: 00:23:48

Um, But we do, this is what we do.

445

: 00:23:51

So, um, I think curiosity

is incredibly important.

446

: 00:23:56

But maybe it's also a pathway to

kind of other things, which is just

447

: 00:24:01

suddenly being a bit more compassionate

for the views of others, even if

448

: 00:24:03

you don't agree with those views.

449

: 00:24:05

But it's okay, you can have good fights.

450

: 00:24:07

But you could still actually

respect the other person for

451

: 00:24:09

a different point of view.

452

: 00:24:10

Is it also then a pathway into things

like vulnerability where, well, if

453

: 00:24:15

I realize that most of the things

that the, I only know a tiny little

454

: 00:24:20

bit about how the world works.

455

: 00:24:22

You know, maybe it kind of opens

up the possibility of, yeah,

456

: 00:24:25

that vulnerability and humility.

457

: 00:24:27

I don't know everything.

458

: 00:24:28

So if someone tells me something

different, that's quite interesting.

459

: 00:24:30

I might be able to learn something

then, as opposed to just thinking,

460

: 00:24:33

particularly as you get to a

certain age and certain level of

461

: 00:24:35

seniority, you do know everything.

462

: 00:24:37

So big curiosity is really important,

but it's taken me over half a

463

: 00:24:41

century to truly appreciate it.

464

: 00:24:43

You know, it's, um, it's,

it's brilliant, really.

465

: 00:24:48

Few things come to mind for me.

466

: 00:24:50

I'm always trying to go one level

deeper on my thinking, I like to

467

: 00:24:53

go for a walk and just kind of

really think about certain things,

468

: 00:24:56

whatever's on my mind that day.

469

: 00:24:59

So part of that process through

that process, what I've I realized

470

: 00:25:05

for myself is I like to redefine

some things , that serve me better.

471

: 00:25:08

So we talk about the word providing,

you had brought up a man, what's the

472

: 00:25:13

men's role if it's not breadwinner

and instead of saying that we're

473

: 00:25:18

not providers, how about we just

redefine the word providing, right?

474

: 00:25:22

Okay.

475

: 00:25:22

Thanks.

476

: 00:25:22

Like what can we provide besides

financial so for me the dad's role,

477

: 00:25:26

the man's role is still provider.

478

: 00:25:30

It's just that you

redefine it for yourself.

479

: 00:25:32

You're providing attention.

480

: 00:25:33

You're providing love.

481

: 00:25:35

You're providing emotional support.

482

: 00:25:36

You're providing caregiving.

483

: 00:25:37

You're providing sharing in the

tasks of gender equity at home.

484

: 00:25:41

You're providing so much to your,

to the people you love the most,

485

: 00:25:44

the people that matter to you

the most to your friendships.

486

: 00:25:47

To your colleagues.

487

: 00:25:49

You are providing all the time.

488

: 00:25:51

And hopefully you decide that part

of that providing is also providing.

489

: 00:25:55

Self love and self compassion and grace

for yourself when you make a mistake and

490

: 00:26:00

learning and unlearning and deep thinking

all that it's all providing to me.

491

: 00:26:04

And so, , when I think of providing in

that way, it gives power to the word.

492

: 00:26:10

It gives me a sense of purpose.

493

: 00:26:11

It gives me that role that I crave.

494

: 00:26:15

I want to be, everyone wants to be known

for having some worth and some value.

495

: 00:26:21

And we ask that question all the time.

496

: 00:26:22

What, what is my purpose?

497

: 00:26:25

Am I worthy?

498

: 00:26:26

All these things that, all the

negative self talk can kind

499

: 00:26:29

of come in sometimes, right?

500

: 00:26:32

So if you can, for yourself, think

about some of those things and define,

501

: 00:26:37

redefine some things for yourself.

502

: 00:26:38

That's been really powerful for me.

503

: 00:26:41

The other thing that came up for

me while you were talking was man

504

: 00:26:43

of the house, the story you told.

505

: 00:26:45

And, yeah, to your point, like, we

could have a woman of the house,

506

: 00:26:49

but also, we're not saying men

shouldn't be men of the house.

507

: 00:26:53

It just needs to look different.

508

: 00:26:55

It just needs to not

be the default answer.

509

: 00:26:58

It doesn't have to be the

man that leads the house.

510

: 00:27:01

To me co leadership is the way forward.

511

: 00:27:03

That's my opinion.

512

: 00:27:05

Co leadership.

513

: 00:27:06

If you are lucky enough to have

a relationship where you're with

514

: 00:27:09

your partner, whoever your partner

is, having both people lead

515

: 00:27:14

it's possible.

516

: 00:27:16

So just things to think about in your

own life, in your own world, where

517

: 00:27:20

it's like, Hey, we can do better.

518

: 00:27:21

We are smart people.

519

: 00:27:23

All of us collectively can do

better than what we're doing.

520

: 00:27:26

And the system that we have

in place is not serving any of

521

: 00:27:31

us and it's creating division.

522

: 00:27:32

So let's come together.

523

: 00:27:34

And let's be open and let's talk about it.

524

: 00:27:35

What is the best path forward?

525

: 00:27:38

So it's really interesting that I thought

about leadership because I look back on

526

: 00:27:42

my own leadership career and realize that

I never well early on, I let alone badly.

527

: 00:27:49

But then after that, I co led.

528

: 00:27:51

And the best leadership experience

I had where I was co leading with

529

: 00:27:55

either a woman, and actually sometimes

when I was following a woman, and

530

: 00:27:59

sometimes when a woman was my deputy

or number two or however you want

531

: 00:28:03

to put it but it worked both ways.

532

: 00:28:06

And I, I always approached the

way I led as, as like my, I

533

: 00:28:10

had people that led with me.

534

: 00:28:11

Once it stopped becoming a

lonely job and about all about

535

: 00:28:14

me, I became so much better.

536

: 00:28:17

But very often the best

partnerships I had was with a woman.

537

: 00:28:20

And there's a really brilliant book

that I'd recommend to anyone, which I

538

: 00:28:23

really love called The Authority Gap.

539

: 00:28:26

by Mary Ann Seacarp.

540

: 00:28:28

And in it she just, the whole

premise of it is that women are

541

: 00:28:31

just taking less seriously than men.

542

: 00:28:32

But what I love about it,

it's clearly not anti men.

543

: 00:28:35

It talks about the fact that this

is based on gender stereotypes.

544

: 00:28:39

And it has loads of practical

tips for how we can spot these

545

: 00:28:42

things and start to overcome them.

546

: 00:28:44

But almost in the final chapter she

talks about almost, wouldn't it be

547

: 00:28:47

brilliant if you, in every leadership

role, You had both sides, you had a

548

: 00:28:52

masculine and feminine kind of working

in tandem together to just create

549

: 00:28:57

that balance that we need when it

comes to leadership decision making.

550

: 00:29:00

Now, it doesn't necessarily have to

be a man and a woman, but clearly,

551

: 00:29:03

that would be a great model to have.

552

: 00:29:05

So yeah, I really, I think that's

a really good way of thinking about

553

: 00:29:09

it from a leadership perspective.

554

: 00:29:10

I think the other trouble is if you've

got a, an all powerful leader God,

555

: 00:29:14

I'm terrified about what might happen

in your country later on this year.

556

: 00:29:19

We probably don't want to get into that

on this podcast, but when you have an

557

: 00:29:22

all powerful leader with unchecked powers

we've seen what happens around the world.

558

: 00:29:27

And as a, as it seems to be an

increasing shift towards, what's

559

: 00:29:30

benignly stated as populism, but

ultimately leads to, autocracy.

560

: 00:29:36

Um, and, and having lived in a

democracy all my life and been pretty

561

: 00:29:40

underwhelmed by most of the leaders

we've had, I'd still prefer that

562

: 00:29:44

to some all powerful individual.

563

: 00:29:47

Um, and so yeah the more kind of balance

you've got in decision making when

564

: 00:29:52

it comes to leadership the better.

565

: 00:29:54

I have a friend, a colleague

who used to be a designer or

566

: 00:29:59

worked as an architect told us

567

: 00:30:02

this story of how she would present

her design to huge companies.

568

: 00:30:08

Procter and Gamble size companies in

the States here where It was her design.

569

: 00:30:13

She was the lead architect.

570

: 00:30:15

She was the lead designer.

571

: 00:30:16

She'd present for an hour.

572

: 00:30:17

She'd finish her presentation.

573

: 00:30:19

She had two colleagues

with her, both men.

574

: 00:30:22

And as soon as the presentation

was over, the people in the room

575

: 00:30:25

would ask the men the questions.

576

: 00:30:28

And thankfully, like her colleagues would

say, well, this is Bejewel's project.

577

: 00:30:31

You can talk to Bejewel.

578

: 00:30:32

She's right here.

579

: 00:30:34

Yeah.

580

: 00:30:34

Bejewel said it took her A couple more

meetings before she was able to earn

581

: 00:30:38

their attention, earn their questions.

582

: 00:30:41

And her perspective on it was

brilliant, saying I'm not gonna

583

: 00:30:44

let that slow me down, basically.

584

: 00:30:45

I'm just not gonna, I'm

not gonna buy into this BS.

585

: 00:30:48

It's not gonna buy into it.

586

: 00:30:49

I'm just gonna do my job.

587

: 00:30:50

I'm going to show up because

I know I'm good at it.

588

: 00:30:53

But the point being , a man would

finish the presentation, get

589

: 00:30:56

the questions right to him.

590

: 00:30:57

So it's just a different, it's just

a different experience for women.

591

: 00:31:01

It's one of the principal things that is

covered in the Authority Gap book, which

592

: 00:31:05

is that men are assumed to be competent,

but women have to prove their competence.

593

: 00:31:10

And sometimes over and

over and over again.

594

: 00:31:13

And we can try and unpack all the reasons

for that, but the first thing to do is

595

: 00:31:16

just recognize that bias that's there.

596

: 00:31:19

And I think you made a really good

point about equity, because it isn't

597

: 00:31:22

about treating everyone the same.

598

: 00:31:24

That just doesn't work.

599

: 00:31:26

It's ridiculous.

600

: 00:31:27

We're all different.

601

: 00:31:28

Um, but it is about equity of opportunity.

602

: 00:31:31

And, and the reality is, I mean, this

is something that's not often looked

603

: 00:31:34

at is social equity and social ity.

604

: 00:31:37

So, you know, you talk about the

reason why we've got a lot of very

605

: 00:31:39

disenfranchised, middle-aged white

men in the UK may well be the same

606

: 00:31:44

in the US is because there are men

that have had absolutely nothing.

607

: 00:31:48

their whole lives, you know, they've

spent a lot of time in living in

608

: 00:31:52

towns or cities where there used to

be industries that aren't anymore,

609

: 00:31:55

they struggled their whole lives.

610

: 00:31:57

And then they're being told they got

privileged, like, come on, you know,

611

: 00:32:00

look at the house I live in, look at

the kind of life and style I've got.

612

: 00:32:03

It's ridiculous.

613

: 00:32:04

Um, And yet there are some people

that never get touched by that.

614

: 00:32:08

I mean, I think about my own background.

615

: 00:32:11

Both my parents had very

humble, humble upbringings.

616

: 00:32:14

My dad left school at 14.

617

: 00:32:15

You know, neither my dad went on

to any kind of formal education,

618

: 00:32:19

but my dad put himself through

night school, got a profession.

619

: 00:32:22

And he was really ambitious for me.

620

: 00:32:24

So he had me doing verbal reasoning

tests every night when I came

621

: 00:32:28

home from school when I was 10.

622

: 00:32:29

So I passed 11 plus and

went to grammar school.

623

: 00:32:32

And as a result of that, I ended up Having

a good education, going to university,

624

: 00:32:37

totally changed my life, totally changed

it, and as a result, my kids lives.

625

: 00:32:42

I've just been on a completely

different level to mine.

626

: 00:32:45

Unrecognizable from the one my parents

had, and that will probably perpetuate.

627

: 00:32:49

So that's just what a simple

thing can do to kind of create

628

: 00:32:53

just opportunities for people.

629

: 00:32:54

That takes generations, but what we

could be doing is identifying, you

630

: 00:32:59

know, those that don't have those

opportunities and then giving them some

631

: 00:33:03

of those, some of that social equity.

632

: 00:33:05

That others just have as a matter of,

just the luck of the draw when it comes

633

: 00:33:08

to when they were born and I think the

reason why it's important is because

634

: 00:33:12

too often we think about, diversity and

equity inclusion is looking around and

635

: 00:33:17

what can you see at the optics, right?

636

: 00:33:19

So, yes, well, we have got a woman on

our board and we've got a person of

637

: 00:33:22

color, so we're not doing too badly.

638

: 00:33:24

And it really misses the point,

because what you're really striving

639

: 00:33:27

for, particularly in senior decision

making, is you want cognitive

640

: 00:33:31

diversity, you want people that have

got different perspectives, different

641

: 00:33:35

ways of processing information, based

on their lived experience, based on

642

: 00:33:39

their skills, their backgrounds, all

of those different things that, you

643

: 00:33:42

know, give them different perspectives.

644

: 00:33:44

But we too often still take

a sort of a first past the

645

: 00:33:47

post approach to recruiting.

646

: 00:33:49

So naturally, if you've

gone to an Ivy League.

647

: 00:33:51

University, and you've come

from a very affluent background.

648

: 00:33:55

You've got great networks around you.

649

: 00:33:57

You're probably going to go on and

have a great job and you deserve it.

650

: 00:34:00

You're super smart.

651

: 00:34:00

You're super hardworking.

652

: 00:34:02

Why not?

653

: 00:34:03

But if I, if I was looking to form

a team of two, me and someone else

654

: 00:34:08

to lead another team or to perform a

role, we're the best one in the world.

655

: 00:34:13

If I had a choice of someone like me

and someone that couldn't perhaps put

656

: 00:34:17

in some of the hours because I happen to

have four kids at home and maybe they got

657

: 00:34:21

some other kind of, challenges in their

lives, I'd still choose them because

658

: 00:34:24

they'll just give me such a different

perspective from someone like me.

659

: 00:34:27

Um, and it's a really overly

simplified bad example I made up on

660

: 00:34:30

the hoof, but you know what I mean?

661

: 00:34:31

It's like, this is why we need to think

about, you know, what we need in the kind

662

: 00:34:36

of shapes of teams and in society as well.

663

: 00:34:39

Because even if you look at

politics in the UK, which again,

664

: 00:34:43

I don't think you'd like to do,

but most of the people in there.

665

: 00:34:47

It's just from the same kind of mold,

you know, went to a, you know, fee paying

666

: 00:34:52

school, life of privilege, end up in

politics, just look and sound the same,

667

: 00:34:58

and fundamentally lack any understanding

of what it's like to be the range of

668

: 00:35:03

people that we have here in the UK.

669

: 00:35:05

Just, we just don't have it.

670

: 00:35:06

And I think the same thing happens in

organizations because of that lack of,

671

: 00:35:10

not lack of necessary women per se, or

people from the global ethnic majority,

672

: 00:35:14

it's just a lack of cognitive diversity.

673

: 00:35:17

But you get that diversity through

people with different backgrounds

674

: 00:35:20

and different lived experiences.

675

: 00:35:23

An author I follow, his

name is Daniel Stillman.

676

: 00:35:26

He wrote a book called Good Talk.

677

: 00:35:27

Great book.

678

: 00:35:28

He's an organizational leadership coach,

he talks about the power of conversations

679

: 00:35:34

he wrote a post it was titled

resistance is information.

680

: 00:35:39

I really liked it.

681

: 00:35:40

And I really like just that simple

sentence, resistance is information.

682

: 00:35:45

What would you say, Jeremy, to, because

I know there's men out there that

683

: 00:35:50

are listening to this conversation or

listen to conversations like these,

684

: 00:35:54

and the initial feeling for the men

who have that fear of like what happens

685

: 00:36:00

when my job gets given to someone else

that type of thing, like what's in it

686

: 00:36:04

for me perspective, which we all have

and I think that's a fair question.

687

: 00:36:08

What's in it for me?

688

: 00:36:09

What do you think, Jeremy, is the

information for the people that

689

: 00:36:12

do have that resistance to having

these conversations, to being an open

690

: 00:36:16

participant in the conversation like this?

691

: 00:36:19

And then what is in it for them if we

quote unquote smash the patriarchy?

692

: 00:36:26

Yeah, it's a great question.

693

: 00:36:27

I mean, this is the way

I try to approach it.

694

: 00:36:30

I try to approach it from a, a sort of a

what's in view, and I always try and start

695

: 00:36:33

with why, why should we be doing this?

696

: 00:36:36

Why do we, why are we in this situation?

697

: 00:36:38

So you actually understand

why that's the case.

698

: 00:36:40

And then finally, why should you care?

699

: 00:36:41

There's three whys I tend to ask, and,

there's an analogy in the authority

700

: 00:36:47

gap, which is a really beautiful one,

which I try and use to illustrate

701

: 00:36:51

the point of this, because very often

we see these kind of things as I'm

702

: 00:36:54

going to have to give up a piece of

my pie as if it's a zero sum game.

703

: 00:36:57

And of course it isn't, the

opportunities are infinite.

704

: 00:37:00

And typically what happens when

you provide opportunities to a

705

: 00:37:03

disadvantaged group, it just opens up

opportunities for everyone else as well.

706

: 00:37:07

Certainly everyone else gets access

to the same kind of additional

707

: 00:37:10

things that thinking has brought in.

708

: 00:37:13

But yeah, the analogy is, and I wish I

could say it's mine, it's the perfect

709

: 00:37:16

one for gender equity, but it's not mine.

710

: 00:37:18

It came from Mary McAleese, who was

the former Irish Prime Minister.

711

: 00:37:21

And she said, if we continue to,

basically the world works like a bird

712

: 00:37:26

with one wing, and if we continue to

treat women less seriously than men,

713

: 00:37:29

then we'll keep flapping around rather

sadly with one wing, without real

714

: 00:37:34

direction or balance or elevation.

715

: 00:37:37

And the worst of it is that the

masculine wing seems to spend a

716

: 00:37:41

disproportionate amount of time

trying to keep the feminine wing down.

717

: 00:37:44

And I think about many women I've

seen who go through, I've gone

718

: 00:37:47

through sort of leadership programs.

719

: 00:37:50

Very often what they've been done

is taught to show more overtly

720

: 00:37:54

masculine traits and dial down some

of the feminine or communal traits

721

: 00:37:59

that are actually proven to be more

effective as leadership traits.

722

: 00:38:02

So that's some of the stuff

we've done in the past.

723

: 00:38:05

But yeah, if we continue

to do that, it ruins.

724

: 00:38:08

It's a waste of effort.

725

: 00:38:10

It ruins lives.

726

: 00:38:11

It ruins relationships.

727

: 00:38:12

And if only we allowed feminine

talents and creativity to flourish

728

: 00:38:15

then women would flourish.

729

: 00:38:17

But so would men.

730

: 00:38:18

The world would flourish.

731

: 00:38:19

We'd all just have more

balance and better elevation.

732

: 00:38:23

And so I try and use that analogy

to say this is about, it's not about

733

: 00:38:26

men having to give anything up.

734

: 00:38:28

just allowing the other wing to

give us that balance and direction

735

: 00:38:31

that we're so often lacking.

736

: 00:38:32

Um, but then what I also try and do is

get all participants to connect it to

737

: 00:38:38

their own sense of purpose and value.

738

: 00:38:40

So I'll often share why it matters to me.

739

: 00:38:43

I'll talk a bit about my kids.

740

: 00:38:44

I'll talk about my core value,

the fairness that has been with

741

: 00:38:47

me since I was a little kid.

742

: 00:38:48

I realize it now, and hence equity.

743

: 00:38:51

And I also talk about how balancing

my energies as a leader may be

744

: 00:38:55

a much more effective leader.

745

: 00:38:56

Once I realized that as well as being

assertive and confident and logical and

746

: 00:39:01

disciplined, all those things that you're

taught, when I weave, when I could bring

747

: 00:39:05

in vulnerability and compassion and

intuition and kindness and generosity,

748

: 00:39:10

it just made me a much better leader.

749

: 00:39:13

It made people want to follow me and

ultimately improve my performance.

750

: 00:39:17

But what you have to do is then I, you

use my own example and obviously use

751

: 00:39:21

the statistics that show how it's the

current system is damaging for men.

752

: 00:39:26

New system would be beneficial for us.

753

: 00:39:28

But ultimately you've gotta get

people to think about it themselves.

754

: 00:39:30

Hence why I try and get them to

think about, what is your purpose?

755

: 00:39:34

what do you stand for?

756

: 00:39:35

What matters to you?

757

: 00:39:36

Um, and then the same when it comes to

trying to connect it to your values.

758

: 00:39:41

The trouble with all of this

kind of stuff, it takes quite

759

: 00:39:43

a lot of work and effort.

760

: 00:39:46

And it's well worth it, but many

organizations still operate on

761

: 00:39:50

the idea that, it's all about,

overestimate what we've done in

762

: 00:39:53

the short term, underestimate

what we've done in the long term.

763

: 00:39:56

Organizations I've worked with have been

prepared to put some time and effort

764

: 00:39:59

into this, have made real breakthroughs.

765

: 00:40:03

And not just collectively,

but on an individual basis,

766

: 00:40:06

which is beautiful to see.

767

: 00:40:08

So I think it has to be an individual

thing, but there are, It's no good me just

768

: 00:40:12

saying, here's my story, go and emulate.

769

: 00:40:14

It can help to give people an illustration

of what it takes and where it's got to.

770

: 00:40:19

But I try and get people to think

about it from their own perspectives.

771

: 00:40:22

And sometimes it can be something

as prosaic as the fact that a lot

772

: 00:40:25

of men get inspired by this simply

because they've got daughters.

773

: 00:40:28

And sometimes people get quite critical

of that, say, well, it's not enough.

774

: 00:40:32

Well, you know, it may not

be enough, but that's the

775

: 00:40:34

catalyst that makes a man think.

776

: 00:40:37

I want to be fair for her and then

with further education and further

777

: 00:40:40

curiosity and, can start to expand their

thinking, that's got to be a good thing.

778

: 00:40:45

So it's got to be something that people

can connect to them, can't just be that

779

: 00:40:49

you can't just give people the data,

got to get them thinking about it in

780

: 00:40:52

their hearts as well and ultimately

get into the point where they have

781

: 00:40:54

the guts to do something about it.

782

: 00:40:57

So, Eric you have a daughter.

783

: 00:40:58

What's, what is this

conversation sparked in you?

784

: 00:41:02

Do you have any questions for Jeremy?

785

: 00:41:06

A couple questions, but before I

go into more of the gender stuff,

786

: 00:41:10

I want to go back to something

you said at the very beginning.

787

: 00:41:11

You're talking about in leadership

you try to teach patience,

788

: 00:41:15

creativity and compassion.

789

: 00:41:17

And then saying that's also what we need

more to do more with that with our kids.

790

: 00:41:21

Yeah.

791

: 00:41:22

And that really resonated with

me because this morning I was

792

: 00:41:24

helping my daughter study for a

math test that's happening today.

793

: 00:41:26

And I was like, and I, so I, I

create little quizzes for her.

794

: 00:41:30

And I just did this little, like, true

or false quiz based on the conversions

795

: 00:41:33

of the millimeters to meters to, and

so I was doing a true or false, and

796

: 00:41:37

there's one question there, she didn't

know the answer, and I was like, well

797

: 00:41:39

just write down whatever you think,

just take a guess, and we'll figure

798

: 00:41:43

it out, and she did not want to take a

guess, she wanted to know the answer,

799

: 00:41:47

and we're running out of time, and

what I'd noticed is, The less time,

800

: 00:41:53

the less patience, the less compassion,

and the less creativity I have.

801

: 00:41:57

Yeah.

802

: 00:41:58

And so now just make an answer.

803

: 00:41:59

Just make an answer.

804

: 00:41:59

And instead of moving the goalpost

and saying, yeah, maybe, maybe you

805

: 00:42:02

don't have to write an answer down.

806

: 00:42:03

If you don't know it, that's

fine, because in, in the end, I

807

: 00:42:05

don't care if you get an A or a B.

808

: 00:42:07

Hmm.

809

: 00:42:09

And so I was really thinking about

that while you guys are talking

810

: 00:42:10

a little earlier, like, what

should I just move the goalpost?

811

: 00:42:12

What is the best thing to do there?

812

: 00:42:14

Yeah.

813

: 00:42:15

And so I want to ask you in a situation

in a company as well as being a parent.

814

: 00:42:21

When there's lack of time, how

do you keep the patience and the

815

: 00:42:26

creativity and the compassion?

816

: 00:42:30

Yeah.

817

: 00:42:31

Um, and it's interesting because I

can think of a scenario very similar

818

: 00:42:35

where when my daughter was quite

young, probably nine or 10 and she

819

: 00:42:39

was struggling with a math problem

because I was quite good at math.

820

: 00:42:41

I'd help her, but there were times when

I was really impatient and it breaks my

821

: 00:42:46

heart a bit now, I look back, um, I don't

think she's, don't think she's scarred,

822

: 00:42:50

but it's just interesting, isn't it?

823

: 00:42:52

How, but in the work

environment, I wouldn't do that.

824

: 00:42:56

And what that says is that, I mean, hey,

what I started to do more of as I, as

825

: 00:43:03

my kids got older was remind myself that

I'm the adult, I've got to remain the

826

: 00:43:07

adult, and not behave like a child myself.

827

: 00:43:09

I think what it means in that situation,

what it's something from being you go

828

: 00:43:12

into a situation like you're trying

to help the individual and suddenly

829

: 00:43:17

you're making it about yourself.

830

: 00:43:18

So you get impatient

and it's all isn't it?

831

: 00:43:21

It's about your feelings.

832

: 00:43:23

So what I try to do in a work environment

and not always with success, but this

833

: 00:43:28

is where feedback was so valuable.

834

: 00:43:31

Is to think always about

the impact I'm having.

835

: 00:43:34

What ultimately is the

outcome that we need to have?

836

: 00:43:37

And what's the environment I'm

creating through all of my actions?

837

: 00:43:41

And someone said to me once that when

you're a leader, it took me a while to

838

: 00:43:44

really internalize and start to use it.

839

: 00:43:45

You're always on stage.

840

: 00:43:46

People are always looking

at you, observing you,

841

: 00:43:49

consciously or subconsciously.

842

: 00:43:51

So they will mirror your

you'll create the environment.

843

: 00:43:56

Um, and took me a while to realize.

844

: 00:44:01

What creates a good

environment versus what didn't.

845

: 00:44:02

But once I did, I was

acutely aware of that.

846

: 00:44:06

Um, so I think it's really just thinking

about in everything you're doing,

847

: 00:44:10

what are the implications of this?

848

: 00:44:11

I mean, there are times definitely

when you've got a deadline to meet.

849

: 00:44:15

You just, you have to say,

okay, so listen, I know

850

: 00:44:17

we've got a deadline to meet.

851

: 00:44:19

Um, I'm going to, we'll find

a way of getting this done.

852

: 00:44:22

But then what we'll do is we'll

come back and have a look at how

853

: 00:44:25

we could have done it better.

854

: 00:44:26

So it wasn't quite so rushed.

855

: 00:44:27

I think it's always important to,

you've got to get stuff done sometimes.

856

: 00:44:32

but to be thoughtful of the

impact you're having on others.

857

: 00:44:35

And a colleague of mine once said that

whatever you're doing with your people,

858

: 00:44:38

you never want to leave them feeling shit.

859

: 00:44:41

Whatever the scenario, always

leave them with a sense that

860

: 00:44:44

there's something positive to

learn, or you've got their back.

861

: 00:44:48

And, I feel like that's a really

waffly answer to the question.

862

: 00:44:51

But I think it ultimately comes

down to leadership for me.

863

: 00:44:55

I realized in the last five years of

my leadership career that it's not

864

: 00:45:00

about what you do or how you do it.

865

: 00:45:02

It's about how you make people feel.

866

: 00:45:04

It's always about how

you make people feel.

867

: 00:45:06

And so if you have in your mind a clear

idea about how you want people to feel,

868

: 00:45:11

and for me it was always I want people

to feel cared for, nurtured and rewarded.

869

: 00:45:16

I want them to feel psychologically

safe and I'd like them to feel inspired.

870

: 00:45:20

Occasionally, you know, but

those three fairly basic things.

871

: 00:45:25

Um, and so I just, if I had that

in my mind, once I realized that

872

: 00:45:28

it was never about what I was doing

or how it's just reframing things

873

: 00:45:31

like the whole Simon Sinek start

with why kind of golden circle.

874

: 00:45:35

If the why is I want people to feel

a certain way, then I can adjust.

875

: 00:45:41

What I did and how I did it to

solve that rather than going

876

: 00:45:44

straight into what you do as a

leader or how you do it as a leader.

877

: 00:45:48

Well, if you think about, well,

how do I want people to feel?

878

: 00:45:51

And then on the basis of that, try

and adjust my behavior accordingly.

879

: 00:45:55

What I should have done is

more of that with my kids.

880

: 00:45:58

So, you know, um, does that sort

of help answer your question, Eric?

881

: 00:46:02

Because I have so much sympathy for

what you said about your daughter

882

: 00:46:07

doing and helping her, you know, with.

883

: 00:46:10

But very often we end up taking

over and doing it from our

884

: 00:46:13

perspective rather than theirs.

885

: 00:46:16

It's fascinating that idea of remember,

I'm trying to, I'm trying to inspire

886

: 00:46:20

her and make her feel nurtured and

to remember that as the ultimate

887

: 00:46:24

goal is, uh, I think it's fantastic.

888

: 00:46:28

Yeah, I noticed my patience wanes.

889

: 00:46:31

As the day goes on.

890

: 00:46:32

So at nighttime as well, I, uh, you

know, it's like, come on, can you

891

: 00:46:36

just do this so we can go to bed?

892

: 00:46:37

It's bedtime.

893

: 00:46:38

You got to wake up in the morning, you

wake up on study, you got stuff to do.

894

: 00:46:41

So I need you to just brush your

teeth or something like that.

895

: 00:46:44

Right.

896

: 00:46:44

And in order to make sure I stay in

that kind of, like, I never raised my

897

: 00:46:48

voice, but I definitely get impatient.

898

: 00:46:51

And so to make sure I, uh, Because

patience is my biggest struggle.

899

: 00:46:56

So that one struck a chord with me.

900

: 00:46:58

I'm a naturally impatient person myself.

901

: 00:47:01

But I think that's another

insight though, isn't it?

902

: 00:47:03

Because I think that if only we could

teach and I'm trying to actually,

903

: 00:47:06

I'm trying to now work with a few

clients that are sort of starting

904

: 00:47:09

a little bit on this journey.

905

: 00:47:10

They haven't got quite so

many things to unlearn.

906

: 00:47:13

If you're going to do leadership

from scratch and do it really, really

907

: 00:47:15

well, this is what it would look like.

908

: 00:47:17

And that's how you always, for

me, it starts with, well, how

909

: 00:47:19

do you want people to feel?

910

: 00:47:20

What are the feelings you

want to induce in people?

911

: 00:47:23

But I think the I've lost my

train of thought about your

912

: 00:47:26

link to what your daughter said.

913

: 00:47:27

Um, he'll come back to me, but it's just

it's ultimately, if you can just think

914

: 00:47:32

about how do you want people to feel and

how can then my actions influence those.

915

: 00:47:39

Ah, it was about self awareness.

916

: 00:47:40

So you just said that I know

when I'm not at my best.

917

: 00:47:44

Well, that's brilliant.

918

: 00:47:45

Just knowing that means

you can make adjustments.

919

: 00:47:48

Um, I started to learn through my

career that I know that there's

920

: 00:47:51

certain things I can do well,

but boy, do they drain my energy.

921

: 00:47:54

So now I know if I have to do those

things, I have to find some way of,

922

: 00:47:58

being prepared for them, but also having

time back to recharge my batteries

923

: 00:48:02

in a way that I know I need to.

924

: 00:48:04

So self awareness is something again

that, leaders are just not taught.

925

: 00:48:09

and it's a lifelong journey of learning

more about what do you really care about?

926

: 00:48:12

What are your real values?

927

: 00:48:14

Because very often we adopt

them, we adopt the things that

928

: 00:48:16

we think, It's expected of me.

929

: 00:48:19

It's only since I left

the corporate world.

930

: 00:48:20

I've truly began to realize just how

liberating it is and how with all

931

: 00:48:25

the privilege I had, how shackled

I was in many, many ways that,

932

: 00:48:29

you know, I'm just not anymore.

933

: 00:48:30

It's lovely.

934

: 00:48:30

I just feel unfiltered.

935

: 00:48:31

Um, sometimes my detriment, I'm sure,

but you know, it's liberating genuinely.

936

: 00:48:37

So yeah, I think against just self

awareness and remembering that your

937

: 00:48:41

job as a leader or as a parent it's

about them, it's about how you make

938

: 00:48:44

them feel, it's all that matters.

939

: 00:48:45

Yeah, it's

940

: 00:48:48

fantastic.

941

: 00:48:50

I love that.

942

: 00:48:50

I think too, being able to name

something, for you, Eric, in this example

943

: 00:48:54

you gave, naming it impatience, and you

can change that name if it helps you to

944

: 00:49:00

name it even something worse than that.

945

: 00:49:01

If it means something to you.

946

: 00:49:02

I learned this through the

positive intelligence program.

947

: 00:49:05

It's really brilliant.

948

: 00:49:06

Shirzad Shameen is an Iranian

leader who developed this program.

949

: 00:49:10

He's a New York Times bestselling author.

950

: 00:49:12

It's called Positive Intelligence.

951

: 00:49:14

And it helps you identify those

inner voices , that we all have.

952

: 00:49:19

That inner dialogue when we

get critical of ourselves.

953

: 00:49:22

And so we all have that

judge, that inner critic.

954

: 00:49:25

But we also have what he calls saboteurs.

955

: 00:49:28

And so we talk about self sabotage.

956

: 00:49:30

Like for me, one of my

big ones is restlessness.

957

: 00:49:33

And it was such a eye opening.

958

: 00:49:36

Program for me, because when we

talked about presence earlier

959

: 00:49:39

in the conversation, one of the

things that I struggle with is I

960

: 00:49:43

always want to be doing something.

961

: 00:49:44

I always want to be busy.

962

: 00:49:44

I have a hard time resting.

963

: 00:49:46

And so in the living room with my

family if I'm not doing a thing

964

: 00:49:51

with my hands or reading a book,

I have to be doing something.

965

: 00:49:55

I've been telling myself that story.

966

: 00:49:56

That's the other trick, right?

967

: 00:49:58

I tell myself that story.

968

: 00:49:59

I have to be doing something.

969

: 00:50:00

I got to be doing something.

970

: 00:50:01

I got to be productive, right?

971

: 00:50:03

And so just sitting and being was really

hard for me, but in those moments,

972

: 00:50:06

I was missing out on my kids, I was

missing out on the preciousness of life.

973

: 00:50:11

And when I was able to name restlessness

as a saboteur, that was so helpful for

974

: 00:50:18

me because I I struggle with restlessness.

975

: 00:50:21

At 6pm tonight, I'm

going to feel restless.

976

: 00:50:24

I'm going to pre program myself now.

977

: 00:50:27

To be prepared for that moment,

so that when it comes, I

978

: 00:50:31

can name it, I can say, hey.

979

: 00:50:33

I know what you're doing literally

have this conversation in my head.

980

: 00:50:35

It sounds crazy, maybe, to people at home.

981

: 00:50:38

It's like, okay, I got, I got it.

982

: 00:50:40

I'm restless, but I'm gonna be present.

983

: 00:50:42

I'm prepared now to show up the way that

I want to show up versus the way that

984

: 00:50:47

I was telling myself I had to show up.

985

: 00:50:50

Yeah.

986

: 00:50:51

And so for you, Eric, in that moment of

your impatience that you struggle with.

987

: 00:50:55

Maybe pre programming okay, at

bedtime tonight, when my daughter's

988

: 00:51:00

resisting brushing her teeth, let's

say or what have you, I'm going to

989

: 00:51:05

get impatient, but instead of getting

impatient, I'm going to pre program

990

: 00:51:08

myself to be prepared for that.

991

: 00:51:10

I don't want to show up that way.

992

: 00:51:11

I want to show up with, like Jeremy

said, in, in the sense of like,

993

: 00:51:14

how do I want my daughter to feel

in this moment and having that.

994

: 00:51:20

Already that, almost like a vision if

you do a visualization exercise, use

995

: 00:51:24

it for you're daily examples of that

type of thing where it's like visualize

996

: 00:51:28

yourself just crushing it in that moment.

997

: 00:51:30

Like just being the

best dad in that moment.

998

: 00:51:33

Yeah.

999

: 00:51:33

So doing like closing your eyes.

: 1000

00:51:35,712 --> 00:51:38,032

Taking a minute and be like,

okay, when this happens, this

: 1001

00:51:38,032 --> 00:51:39,242

is how I'm going to show up.

: 1002

00:51:40,432 --> 00:51:41,432

It's been life changing.

: 1003

00:51:41,612 --> 00:51:47,892

Thinking about that, just, um, I remember

when I used to do quite a few leadership

: 1004

00:51:47,892 --> 00:51:49,662

roles where I ran a distribution network.

: 1005

00:51:49,852 --> 00:51:53,132

So people are serving customers, either

in branches or relationship managers.

: 1006

00:51:53,142 --> 00:51:55,512

And you get these monthly

meetings where you get together.

: 1007

00:51:55,582 --> 00:51:57,992

And we introduced this

discipline where one of the.

: 1008

00:51:58,482 --> 00:52:02,102

Other area managers or region managers,

whoever one of the team was, would

: 1009

00:52:02,102 --> 00:52:03,822

act as the customer in the room.

: 1010

00:52:04,392 --> 00:52:08,572

Now, the only person that knew who that

person was, was me, is leading the team.

: 1011

00:52:08,572 --> 00:52:10,892

So I would ask someone to do it,

but what they would do throughout

: 1012

00:52:10,902 --> 00:52:12,332

the day is, what is contributing?

: 1013

00:52:13,217 --> 00:52:16,567

They would just have an additional

eye on what would a customer say

: 1014

00:52:17,157 --> 00:52:21,617

if they were, in the room with us

hearing us talking about our business.

: 1015

00:52:21,747 --> 00:52:24,307

So just, it always gave us really

interesting insights into things

: 1016

00:52:24,307 --> 00:52:26,167

we said or did that perhaps

weren't appropriate, whatever.

: 1017

00:52:27,017 --> 00:52:31,497

But I just was thinking that if

you could apply that to, parenting.

: 1018

00:52:31,927 --> 00:52:35,187

So imagine you're actually

observing yourself.

: 1019

00:52:35,237 --> 00:52:38,757

What would that look like if you're doing

it brilliantly and at those moments where

: 1020

00:52:38,757 --> 00:52:42,257

perhaps you might be impatient, if you

take yourself a step back and just observe

: 1021

00:52:42,257 --> 00:52:43,617

yourself, what would you be thinking?

: 1022

00:52:43,617 --> 00:52:44,467

What would you say?

: 1023

00:52:44,547 --> 00:52:48,337

How would you, again, this is kind of

stuff I think I wish I'd done, back in

: 1024

00:52:48,517 --> 00:52:50,637

the day, but it can apply to anything.

: 1025

00:52:50,637 --> 00:52:54,577

It doesn't, it is never too late

to take those kind of things in.

: 1026

00:52:55,367 --> 00:52:59,362

Um, But yeah, just sometimes taking it,

just taking a step back and observing

: 1027

00:52:59,832 --> 00:53:02,482

what you're feeling and what you're, the

way you're behaving and just thinking,

: 1028

00:53:02,572 --> 00:53:04,272

is that really how I want to show up?

: 1029

00:53:04,732 --> 00:53:06,562

Is that having the impact

that I want it to have?

: 1030

00:53:06,562 --> 00:53:07,572

Could be quite helpful.

: 1031

00:53:08,852 --> 00:53:09,122

A hundred percent.

: 1032

00:53:09,132 --> 00:53:12,372

Even if it's mind's eye, or as you

say, it's about visualizing how

: 1033

00:53:12,372 --> 00:53:13,652

something is going to be in the future.

: 1034

00:53:13,712 --> 00:53:15,442

I think that's a great

way of thinking about it.

: 1035

00:53:16,342 --> 00:53:20,272

Jeremy, thank you for sharing your

wisdom, sharing your experience.

: 1036

00:53:20,807 --> 00:53:26,447

Sharing unlearnings and I always say

the, my favorite part about hosting Dad's

: 1037

00:53:26,447 --> 00:53:30,817

Interrupted is I learn, so it's almost

a little selfish, what's in it for me?

: 1038

00:53:30,817 --> 00:53:32,107

Well, I learn a lot.

: 1039

00:53:32,157 --> 00:53:32,827

So thank you.

: 1040

00:53:33,177 --> 00:53:36,187

I want to give you the opportunity,

Jeremy, to tell people, , how they can

: 1041

00:53:36,187 --> 00:53:41,147

find you, what's the best way for them

to reach out, and if there's anyone in

: 1042

00:53:41,217 --> 00:53:46,077

the corporate space, leadership space

that would want to hire you for work,

: 1043

00:53:46,107 --> 00:53:47,317

how would they go about doing that?

: 1044

00:53:48,487 --> 00:53:50,907

Well, there's probably two main

routes that are the best ones.

: 1045

00:53:50,947 --> 00:53:52,367

The first one would be, LinkedIn.

: 1046

00:53:52,892 --> 00:53:57,792

Um, just, just, uh, go to my

company site, Ylead, or just my

: 1047

00:53:57,792 --> 00:53:58,942

name is probably the best one.

: 1048

00:53:58,942 --> 00:54:01,412

That's what I mostly use for

posting and, for sharing the

: 1049

00:54:01,422 --> 00:54:02,502

things that I'm interested in.

: 1050

00:54:02,952 --> 00:54:04,512

So those, that's, that's

one route LinkedIn.

: 1051

00:54:04,512 --> 00:54:05,682

The other one would be to my email.

: 1052

00:54:05,702 --> 00:54:07,372

So it's Jeremy at Ylead.

: 1053

00:54:07,372 --> 00:54:07,532

co.

: 1054

00:54:07,532 --> 00:54:08,422

uk.

: 1055

00:54:08,897 --> 00:54:09,787

So nice and simple.

: 1056

00:54:10,167 --> 00:54:12,107

So people can just email me

there, and we'd love to have

: 1057

00:54:12,107 --> 00:54:13,197

a conversation with anyone.

: 1058

00:54:13,937 --> 00:54:16,687

Even if it's just to explore these

topics in more detail, because to

: 1059

00:54:16,687 --> 00:54:18,467

your point, I'm, I learn all the time.

: 1060

00:54:18,517 --> 00:54:23,377

Whenever I write a post on a

Wednesday, I learn so much from

: 1061

00:54:23,377 --> 00:54:25,217

reading the comments, including yours.

: 1062

00:54:25,657 --> 00:54:28,667

And just quickly, speaking of LinkedIn,

I want to mention this before we DuPont,

: 1063

00:54:28,687 --> 00:54:32,197

when you said about men as providers,

I love the way you framed that.

: 1064

00:54:32,287 --> 00:54:35,867

I really love the way that was

by expanding that horizon of

: 1065

00:54:35,867 --> 00:54:38,247

what men as providers means,

how powerful that could be.

: 1066

00:54:38,247 --> 00:54:40,697

So please make that one

of your future posts.

: 1067

00:54:41,847 --> 00:54:42,637

Appreciate you saying that.

: 1068

00:54:43,047 --> 00:54:44,417

Yeah, there's something there for sure.

: 1069

00:54:44,807 --> 00:54:46,207

Uh, we got to wrap up, Jeremy.

: 1070

00:54:46,247 --> 00:54:47,997

Again so generous with your time.

: 1071

00:54:48,147 --> 00:54:49,297

This was a brilliant conversation.

: 1072

00:54:49,297 --> 00:54:50,337

Thank you so much.

: 1073

00:54:50,367 --> 00:54:51,407

Appreciate your time.

: 1074

00:54:51,417 --> 00:54:52,627

Enjoy the rest of your day.

: 1075

00:54:52,647 --> 00:54:56,367

And looking forward to Your next post

I can't wait to see what it's about.

: 1076

00:54:56,607 --> 00:54:57,187

Always learning.

: 1077

00:54:57,987 --> 00:54:59,517

Always looking forward

to you as well, Fred.

: 1078

00:54:59,527 --> 00:55:01,017

And yeah, great to meet you too, Eric.

: 1079

00:55:01,017 --> 00:55:03,057

And yeah, see you again soon.