Becoming a Lead Dad with Paul Sullivan

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So welcome to an episode

of Dad's Interrupted.

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I'm super excited today.

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I've got Paul Sullivan, and

if you haven't heard of Paul

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Sullivan, , you're missing out.

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Paul is an accomplished journalist.

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He's an author.

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He's written a column called Wealth

Matters for the New York Times.

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He also created the Money

Game column in Golf Magazine.

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He's written for the International

Herald Tribune, Fortune, Money, Barron's.

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The Boston Globe food and wine.

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He started his career as a journalist

25 plus years ago as a reporter

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for Bloomberg author of two books,

clutch, why some people excel

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under pressure and others don't.

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And the thin green line, the money

secrets of the super wealthy.

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But now Paul leads a little

bit of a different life.

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He is the founder of the company of dad.

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Company of Dads is the first

platform dedicated to creating

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a community for lead dads.

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So I'll have Paul explain what

a lead dad is in just a second.

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But before we get into that Paul,

appreciate you taking your time out

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of your busy day to be on the show.

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And I know not only are you

busy running the company of dads,

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but you're a lead dad yourself.

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So I appreciate you taking that

time with us to share your wisdom.

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I'm happy to be here.

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Thank you for asking me.

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The first question is always, what does

it mean to you to be an interrupted dad?

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Hang on one second, my

phone's ringing here.

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Can I just gotta text a little bit here.

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What was the question?

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I'm sorry.

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I got interrupted, Frederick.

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What was the question?

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. I'll tell you a story.

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A weekend ago my wife went away for a

long weekend with our youngest daughter.

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And along with our youngest

daughter's best friend and her mom.

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The four of them went away

for, it was a long weekend.

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And I stayed home with

our two oldest daughters.

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Because it was just me alone, I didn't

do any work, I didn't do anything

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else, and I just was with them.

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And it was the best weekend I can

remember having in a long time.

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What did we do?

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We took a walk into town, we got some

smoothies, we're 11 and 14, we went

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to the bookshop we walked our dogs

the next day we realized the front of

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the house was looking pretty shabby.

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It was pretty shabby.

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We went to the local garden center, we

bought a whole bunch of flowers so that

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when my wife got home, they would be

all planted, and we did that and we made

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dinner very, everything was very slow.

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And the night when they would go

to bed I would, do a little work I

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would read, I had some time for me.

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And I was not interrupted at all.

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That is not a normal weekend for

many dads that I know, and it

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was beautiful and I thought, how

can I, how can I recreate this?

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And it's not always possible, what being

an interrupted dad means is somebody, I

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believe, who's trying to, Excel in many

different facets of his life, and those

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facets aren't always complimentary.

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If you're devoting 100 percent of your

time to being a dad, you're there.

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If you're devoting 100 percent of your

time to being a spouse, you're there.

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If you're devoting 100 percent

of your time to work or to

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your hobby you're there.

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And the more we can do that, the

less interrupted we are as dads, I

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think ultimately the happier we are,

but It's really difficult, and more

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often than not, particularly, my,

my wife and I have always called it

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the race to the finish, and that's

the time from dinner until bedtime.

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And all kinds of stuff happens, and some

of it is really good and funny, and some

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of it is not, and, I became a lead dad,

which I'll talk about later on, because

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I had greater rigidity in my schedule

at the New York Times than my wife did.

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My wife had almost no control over

when somebody would call, when

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she would have a meeting, and so

literally, we'd be having dinner.

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A huge client will call her, she'd have

no choice but to to take the call and

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she would and I'd balance it, and those

interruptions happen, throughout a day

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and we get used to it but whenever we can

get a weekend like I had, recently to just

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reset and appreciate how wonderful it is

to have the luxury to focus on just one

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thing at a time and not be interrupted

there's something magical about that.

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That's incredible.

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I love that story.

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And thinking of your example of your

wife getting the call at dinner,

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it's maybe I should have called

this podcast, Interrupted Moms.

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It's Interrupted Working Parents.

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It's Interrupted Working Parents.

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Exactly.

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I think, for me too, one of the

reasons like I, I started this

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is really I want to have genuine,

authentic, vulnerable conversations

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with other men and other dads.

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To share their stories, their wisdom,

their struggles, and their wins and

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losses around all the things, right?

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Sometimes we feel a lot of pressure

to be everything to everybody.

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And dad's, I think our, our role

as dad is critical and crucial.

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Paramount to everything else we do,

but often I feel like men and dads can

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get lost in the weeds, if you will,

of all the pressures they feel from

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the expectations that are put upon

them to provide for their family,

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to, be the best husband they can

be, to be the best dad they can be.

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And truth be told, Paul, we don't, we're

not taught this kind of stuff in school.

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And so I love what you're doing.

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I want you to talk more about.

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The community you're building for

men and dads to feel, I think that's

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one of the things you put on your

website is like men feel isolated.

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They feel alone, even not only

necessarily the lead dads that are out

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there, but even dads in general, dads

that maybe are not lead dads, but

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they, feel like maybe they're just

not, Winning at home enough to be

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looked at as a quote unquote, good dad.

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So talk, so I guess first tell me

what does it mean to be a lead dad?

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And then what do you recommend for

dads in general to, to maybe show

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up with more confidence at home?

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Yeah so lead dad, we define it as

the go to parent whether he works

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full time, part time, and devotes

all of his time to his family.

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And then we say in many cases he's there

to support his spouse or partner at

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home, and is always an ally and advocate

for working moms and caregivers, and

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obviously other lead dads in the office.

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And the question is how did

you come to this, Sullivan?

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And, I came to it because,

My, my dream growing up was to

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write for the New York Times.

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I grew up, my, my parents were divorced.

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I grew up in Western Massachusetts.

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Very lower middle class.

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And I didn't quite, wasn't quite

sure how I would achieve that goal.

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But I did, and it worked out.

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And it was amazing.

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And I started writing

for the Times in: 2006

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I became a columnist,

a business columnist.

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Got to create my own column in 2008.

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Yeah.

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And I, wrote a book, first

book came out in: 2009

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My career was really, rocking and rolling.

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I had two, daughters, two,

two daughters by: 2012

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And in 2013, my wife said, I

want to start my own business.

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Now this wasn't a crazy idea.

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She'd been works in asset

management and consulting.

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She'd been doing this for her whole

career and she'd gotten a point

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where she could go out on her own.

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And I said, a hundred percent, I

can't be any happier or more fulfilled

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in my career than I am right now.

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I can't, I didn't,

couldn't even dreamt this.

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You should go do it.

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And she says, okay.

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And so the next day she went and told

her then partner that in three months,

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she was going to, make it orderly.

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She'd take her clients.

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He'd keep his client

and it didn't go well.

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He immediately.

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Locked her out of the system and,

financial services, everything,

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literally, you press a button and

it's walls go down, you're locked out,

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you don't get your email ever again.

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And she came home and said, what do we do?

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And I said you've always

been the higher earner.

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It's great to be married to a

New York Times columnist who's

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written a couple books, but let's

be honest, people who work in

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financial services make more money.

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I think you should start your business.

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Now, because she laughs and what about the

kids and I said, I'll become the lead dad.

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And that was the genesis of this

cept and I stepped into it in: 2013

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because I was at a point in my career

where if I worked really hard at it,

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I could manage the time pretty well.

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Now my dad was a lot younger,

so he would come down often so

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we did, I did have help there.

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Lots of babysitters in my town.

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All of this stuff.

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I wasn't doing this all.

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Being a lead dad doesn't mean being a dad.

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Some people call it a stay at home dad.

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I call a lead dad to devote

all of his time to his family.

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This is, you gotta, more like

coordinating, leveraging.

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And it worked really well, but at no

time, at no point did I feel comfortable

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going around my town in Connecticut

or Getting on the train into New York

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or telling any of my New York Times

colleagues that I was a lead dad.

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It was always, like many men,

I identified with my job.

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Paul Sullivan, New York Times

columnist, author of XYZ book.

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And I just kept on keeping on.

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And why did I do that?

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Two reasons.

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One, in my town, I thought

most of the caregiving was done

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by moms and paid caregivers.

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Nannies, au pairs baby and for

the most part, It was true, but

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it wasn't the whole picture.

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And second, I was afraid that if I told

my editors at the times that I was a

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lead dad, they would think that I was

insufficiently committed to my job.

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This is my dream job.

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And I started running

some special sections.

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I wheezed my way into

writing about golf in: 2019

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I didn't want to jeopardize any of that.

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And of course, like many things that are.

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And it's like a house of cards that

are built unstably and all came

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crashing down during COVID because

then I couldn't fake it anymore.

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Like being a lead dad, the type of lead

dad I was or am was predicated on my

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kids being in school or a summer camp,

or if they weren't going to be in either

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school or summer camp, I knew about it

three months in advance so I could plan

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that week, those two weeks, whatever

it was and do stuff and work around it.

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And it was in that moment of COVID where

I said, Jesus, this is really lonely.

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I'm a total nerd when it comes to golf.

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There are tons of nerdy golf

communities where you can nerd

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out on everything about golf.

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But, there's gotta be something like this

for me for dads like me, and of course

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you go online, tons of stuff for moms.

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All the stuff for

parents, really for moms.

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Most of the things for dads, honestly,

are dads in some form of distress.

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At least at that point, 2020.

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Dads who've divorced, dads

who've been incarcerated.

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Super important stuff but

not what I was looking for.

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And then I said maybe I'm wrong.

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Maybe there aren't that

many dads in the U.

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S.

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who are super involved.

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So I did what a New York Times

columnist would do, and I did some

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research, and it was super easy to

come up with an accurate number.

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The U.

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S.

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Census tracks this, Bureau of Labor

Statistics tracks this, Pew tracks this.

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There are about 25 million men in the U.

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S.

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who are lead dads, who could be lead dads.

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That's a third of all fathers.

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And it was with that, then I won't bore

you with the rest of the story, but it was

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with that bit of knowledge, I said, okay.

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There is something here and,

my background was media.

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I knew there had to be a community

component, but because I'd always been

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a business journalist, because I'd given

talks to corporations when my books came

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out, I knew that, or I believed that

change had to occur through the workplace.

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That companies had a profit

motive to figure out a better

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way to allow both their lead

dads but also their working moms.

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to balance the different parts of their

lives whenever we went back to the office.

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And so I knew that there would have

to be a workplace education component.

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And so that was it.

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And, the second part of your

question is, how do you, what

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advice would I give to men?

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And I was like one of the things we're

trying to do at the company of dads

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is normalize the role of lead dads.

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Make it so that you can say, I'm a

lead dad and not be embarrassed because

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what are the other terms that exist?

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Mr.

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Mom.

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The house husband or, oh, you're

retired, the very pejorative

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and it's, men joking with men.

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We do this all the time, cutting

comments and, but sometimes what

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people think are funny are actually

too cutting and so people have

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receded where they should embrace it.

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And the second thing I say is,

if you're going to show up in

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your community, you absolutely

need to show up at your company.

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Because particularly if you have

any seniority in that company

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you can be a model for other men.

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You can be a model for other

working moms and caregivers.

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You can say hey, I'm leaving at 3 o'clock.

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I'm not like, oh, is

it, Billy's soccer game?

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It's no Billy had a bad day at school.

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Some kids gave him a hard time.

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I'm gonna take Billy for an ice cream.

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I'll log back on in an hour and

a half or two hours if I miss

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anything, just let me know.

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And when we talk about this on our

podcast, when we talk about this,

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in some of our writings, men who do

that have a tremendous impact on the

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workplace, because, sure, it's good

for them, but all these other people,

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both men and women, who see this it's

wow, if he can do it, I can do it.

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And suddenly all those working moms

who've been fighting against all of

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this discrimination, this gender based

discrimination because of their parents,

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suddenly these working moms have an ally.

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And once you have that allyship, you

have something larger to go to those

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people managers and say, look, we

are some of your best employees here.

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We are working hard.

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Give us a break.

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Trust us, we'll come in two, three

days a week, but there's other

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asynchronous work that we can do

that allow us to live our lives.

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Both areas, show up and be present

and be proud that you're Elite Dead.

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Don't hide it and don't joke it away.

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So talk about, that's a great message.

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And I think Empowering other men at work,

makes a whole lot of sense because I

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come from a background in construction.

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I was a project manager in construction,

predominantly a male dominated business.

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There were, there's more men running

construction jobs than women.

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We can talk about that's a separate

topic for another time, but seeing the

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men that I worked alongside, running

these projects, they all had kids.

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Thanks.

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But they were required to work

60, 70 hour weeks during the

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really busiest of seasons.

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And, where do they find

the time to be dad?

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The idea of leaving.

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Early or coming in late, or just

to your point Hey, my son had my

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son or daughter had a rough day.

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I'm going to go be with them.

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Cause I'm, that's more

important to me than this work.

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Or I trust my team to handle the work.

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It doesn't mean I'm leaving it and F off.

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Like I'm going to do, be back tomorrow.

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Yeah, great message.

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Tell me more about the work that

the company at Dad's does, or if

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you had something to add to that.

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I'd like to add in on that

before I talk about that.

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Last I checked, buildings

don't go up in a day, right?

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Exactly.

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And last I checked one person isn't

putting up the whole building.

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You got a GC of some form, you're

bringing in somebody to do the foundation,

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you're bringing in somebody to frame

it, you're bringing in somebody to

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run the electrical, you're bringing

in somebody to do the plumbing.

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All of that stuff is happening over

quite a long period of time, and

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I'll jokingly say, I don't know if

you're in commercial or residential

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construction, but the few projects

we've done on homes that we've owned.

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Never done on time.

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So it's I always say always

cost more than I thought.

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Never done on time.

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So what I think sometimes, I'll push

back against, because there's a bit of a

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fallacy there that it's always on culture.

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It's an old way of managing.

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I think of, like right now in

midtown Manhattan, JP Morgan

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is building a new headquarters.

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They tore down the old one

and building a new one.

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It's taking years and years

to build that building.

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I'm not saying you're not working hard.

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I'm not saying you're not

thoroughly engaged, but do

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you always need to be on site?

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: 00:14:13

And are have you hired the right

people if you feel that you always

310

: 00:14:17

have to be on site and look at them

and say, okay, are you doing this?

311

: 00:14:20

Nobody wants to be micromanaged.

312

: 00:14:22

And as I say the more you

try to control yourself, the

313

: 00:14:26

less actual control you have.

314

: 00:14:28

Be it work, life, whatever.

315

: 00:14:30

And, I tell you this, my cousin

works for A gypsum drywall

316

: 00:14:34

company, so you need every house

in America that has drywall put up.

317

: 00:14:38

And that stuff is really heavy.

318

: 00:14:40

A whole bunch of plants

all over the country.

319

: 00:14:41

Really labor intensive.

320

: 00:14:43

And it is something where

you can't work from home.

321

: 00:14:45

You can't work from home and make gypsum.

322

: 00:14:47

So the owner of this company based

in North Carolina, he said, okay

323

: 00:14:52

and this is old school company.

324

: 00:14:53

He said, all right these hourly workers,

I can't tell them what they're doing.

325

: 00:14:57

Work, only work, work from home two days

a week, there's nothing they can do.

326

: 00:15:00

So he gave, instead he gave them

the option, instead of working,

327

: 00:15:03

five eight hour days, how about

you work four ten hour days?

328

: 00:15:09

It's your choice, you can get forty

hours one way or the other and you

329

: 00:15:12

have the, and, So many people went

for the four ten hour days to work a

330

: 00:15:16

little bit more four days a week to

have that extra time, whether Monday,

331

: 00:15:21

Tuesday, Friday, whenever it was to be

with their family was game changing.

332

: 00:15:26

So we're not always going to be

able to bounce, white collar, work

333

: 00:15:30

where you can be remote and do that.

334

: 00:15:31

They're not always but there are

workarounds for people who have, for

335

: 00:15:35

dads who want to be present and have

to still be on site doing the work.

336

: 00:15:39

A hundred percent.

337

: 00:15:39

So company dads you built a community.

338

: 00:15:43

How does one get involved

in the community?

339

: 00:15:45

And I have more questions related to

your, I love the work you're doing and

340

: 00:15:49

I don't really know a lot about it.

341

: 00:15:50

So I'm learning as we go here,

just like all the listeners.

342

: 00:15:54

Did you use me?

343

: 00:15:55

I think you mentioned that you

also work with other companies

344

: 00:15:58

to work on their culture.

345

: 00:16:00

Is that correct?

346

: 00:16:01

That's correct.

347

: 00:16:02

Yeah, so it's really twofold.

348

: 00:16:03

So we launched in February of 22 2022.

349

: 00:16:07

I left the times in October.

350

: 00:16:08

21 launched it.

351

: 00:16:09

Whatever that was 45 months later.

352

: 00:16:11

And we do three things.

353

: 00:16:12

So media and community are there for sure.

354

: 00:16:15

Everybody.

355

: 00:16:16

And so the media is a weekly

podcast a weekly newsletter.

356

: 00:16:19

Anybody can go to the

site, thecompanyofdads.

357

: 00:16:21

com backslash thedad.

358

: 00:16:23

Sign up for the newsletter.

359

: 00:16:24

I say that's the easiest way in.

360

: 00:16:25

It's very passive.

361

: 00:16:26

It'll show up in your inbox every

Sunday morning, right around 7 a.

362

: 00:16:29

m.

363

: 00:16:30

But we also, we highlight different

dads because, again, as I said,

364

: 00:16:33

we're trying to normalize this role.

365

: 00:16:34

So we have something called

the Lead Dad of the Week.

366

: 00:16:37

And that really exists to show just

the depth and breadth of men who

367

: 00:16:41

are in this role from every single,

background you could imagine.

368

: 00:16:45

For the past year, we've been following

this one guy named Skip Cherryholmes,

369

: 00:16:48

who was a pretty well, very well

known bluegrass musician, as he got

370

: 00:16:52

off the road and became a lead dad.

371

: 00:16:54

And what was it like?

372

: 00:16:55

What did he go through?

373

: 00:16:56

We did that one because Skip's an

interesting guy, but two, we did it to

374

: 00:16:59

show the How people can change careers,

how they can opt into the life they want.

375

: 00:17:04

Community is a mix of monthly online

events and in person events, but

376

: 00:17:08

given our size right now, most of

the in person events are around

377

: 00:17:11

the New York City metro area.

378

: 00:17:12

So if you're here, come.

379

: 00:17:13

We'll have one right before Father's Day.

380

: 00:17:14

That's great.

381

: 00:17:15

And, but the other side of that

is the workplace education.

382

: 00:17:18

And so we have various partnerships with

companies in which we'll go in and do a

383

: 00:17:23

talk, Do a seminar spend time with some

of their key managers, and what we're

384

: 00:17:27

trying to do there is change the messaging

and change the narrative that happens.

385

: 00:17:32

And for example, like a lot of

companies will tout their parental

386

: 00:17:35

leave policies, and that's important.

387

: 00:17:38

And companies that have equitable

parental leave policies, say 20 weeks for

388

: 00:17:42

dad, 20 weeks for mom, that's awesome.

389

: 00:17:44

But that's the product.

390

: 00:17:47

A lot of companies don't think

about the process afterwards.

391

: 00:17:50

So you can spend gajillions of

dollars with the top consultants in

392

: 00:17:54

America creating this parental policy.

393

: 00:17:57

Great, it's there.

394

: 00:17:57

But it only takes one or two

managers to say something buffoonish

395

: 00:18:01

Are you going on vacation?

396

: 00:18:02

Oh wait, no, you're taking leave.

397

: 00:18:04

Hey, I remember when my kids were young.

398

: 00:18:07

I didn't take any, I missed so much.

399

: 00:18:09

But hey, go out and do that if you want.

400

: 00:18:11

When you don't get the messaging

right, you essentially torpedo

401

: 00:18:15

that entire, very expensive,

thought out parental leave plan.

402

: 00:18:19

And you deter people from taking.

403

: 00:18:21

Now, why do you care about that?

404

: 00:18:22

You care about it for a couple reasons.

405

: 00:18:23

You, are you, do you like humans?

406

: 00:18:25

Okay it's good if you like humans.

407

: 00:18:26

It's good for parents to

bond with their children.

408

: 00:18:28

But let's say you don't like humans.

409

: 00:18:29

Let's say you just like the bottom line.

410

: 00:18:32

If you don't put policies and processes

in place that allow people to live

411

: 00:18:37

the type of lives they want to live

post COVID, they are going to leave.

412

: 00:18:42

And so this becomes a huge loss.

413

: 00:18:45

And so we talk a lot to

companies about retention.

414

: 00:18:47

This is what we're doing is you may

think it's soft and fluffy and we're

415

: 00:18:51

going to hug everybody at the end.

416

: 00:18:53

We do that.

417

: 00:18:53

But really this is how you keep people

from leaving because if you're running

418

: 00:18:58

any sort of company, a hundred people,

10, 000 people, 80, 000 people Your top

419

: 00:19:03

30 percent always have lots of options,

and your top 30 percent are always

420

: 00:19:06

thinking, Do I like the way I'm working?

421

: 00:19:08

Do I like what this is doing?

422

: 00:19:10

Am I feeling fulfilled?

423

: 00:19:11

Now your bottom 30%, they have no options,

but you can't manage for your bottom 30%.

424

: 00:19:15

You can't manage for the people who are

going to take advantage of everything.

425

: 00:19:18

And so we're really trying to reframe

the way companies are thinking because

426

: 00:19:23

as we say, we're working to help families

fulfill their full potential in the

427

: 00:19:28

community and in the corporate space.

428

: 00:19:29

Thanks.

429

: 00:19:30

Love it.

430

: 00:19:32

It makes so much sense, Paul.

431

: 00:19:33

How have you found the reception when

you go into some of these places?

432

: 00:19:36

Is it very antiquated, like

stuck in their old ways?

433

: 00:19:39

Are they pretty open to

hearing your message?

434

: 00:19:42

I think to be totally fair that there's

a bit of confirmation bias here because

435

: 00:19:45

the companies that reach out to me,

the companies that bring me in, the

436

: 00:19:48

partnerships that we have, these are

progressive companies by definition.

437

: 00:19:51

Have I had conversations with

companies who they've totally fallen

438

: 00:19:55

flat after doing a great pitch?

439

: 00:19:57

A hundred percent.

440

: 00:19:58

I'm not going to reach everybody.

441

: 00:19:59

We only have four or five people

here at the company of dads.

442

: 00:20:02

So we don't have the capacity

to reach everyone right now.

443

: 00:20:05

But my goal is to reach enough.

444

: 00:20:07

companies to build a significant

critical mass so that they can say,

445

: 00:20:10

Hey, we are doing this and this is

why it's important because that's when

446

: 00:20:14

bigger companies will take notice.

447

: 00:20:16

They'll take notice when suddenly they're

losing employees to these other companies

448

: 00:20:19

that have better policies that really

think through that workload equation.

449

: 00:20:24

Yeah, that makes sense.

450

: 00:20:25

I think once, it's like that.

451

: 00:20:27

That domino effect.

452

: 00:20:28

Once more companies start to do this

sort of thing and start to see, oh,

453

: 00:20:32

it's working and talent staying.

454

: 00:20:34

And, every company, what they

don't realize is they're in

455

: 00:20:36

the people business first.

456

: 00:20:38

So I think that makes a lot of sense.

457

: 00:20:40

If they can, if you can convince, a

handful, then hopefully that domino

458

: 00:20:45

falls and more companies will start

to get on board with your message.

459

: 00:20:47

So I love that.

460

: 00:20:49

It definitely wasn't that way at

my company working in construction.

461

: 00:20:52

There's a lot of work to do, but

I love the work you're doing.

462

: 00:20:54

So company of dads.

463

: 00:20:56

com is where people can find you and join

the community, sign up for the newsletter

464

: 00:21:01

and just see what everything's all about.

465

: 00:21:03

I want to pivot here and talk

more on a personal level.

466

: 00:21:06

And again, whatever you're

comfortable talking about sharing.

467

: 00:21:08

Great.

468

: 00:21:09

If you're uncomfortable,

just tell me and that's fine.

469

: 00:21:10

We'll move on.

470

: 00:21:11

But, you had mentioned.

471

: 00:21:13

Your parents were divorced.

472

: 00:21:16

Based on everything you're telling

me, you're an amazing father.

473

: 00:21:19

How was your your experience like

with your own father and like,

474

: 00:21:23

where did you learn, where did you

learn, like, how to become a better

475

: 00:21:28

dad, a great dad along the way?

476

: 00:21:30

Or was it just innate and

In you from the get go.

477

: 00:21:33

I know there's no parenting playbook.

478

: 00:21:35

I'm a dad myself.

479

: 00:21:35

So it's, I always love to ask dads

this question because I think it

480

: 00:21:38

runs the gamut from, Oh like it's

been a, it's been a train wreck.

481

: 00:21:43

Or nah, like I had it and

had a great role model.

482

: 00:21:46

But I think a lot of times we had,

we adopt, the models that we had.

483

: 00:21:50

And if our relationship with our own

father, maybe it wasn't the best,

484

: 00:21:53

we are almost like behind in a way.

485

: 00:21:57

So I'm curious to hear like

where your journey as a dad and

486

: 00:22:01

like how it's evolved over time.

487

: 00:22:03

Yeah.

488

: 00:22:03

So let me address something

you said midway through there.

489

: 00:22:05

And that, you're a great

dad by your own admission.

490

: 00:22:07

And I have a 14 year old

daughter soon to be 15 and.

491

: 00:22:12

She wanted me to do something

a couple of weeks ago.

492

: 00:22:15

I can't remember what it was.

493

: 00:22:16

And I couldn't, I was busy.

494

: 00:22:19

She's got two sisters,

a lot of stuff going on.

495

: 00:22:21

And it wasn't critical.

496

: 00:22:21

It was, it doesn't matter.

497

: 00:22:23

Critical to her, but not for you.

498

: 00:22:24

Yeah.

499

: 00:22:25

At that moment.

500

: 00:22:26

And she, no, it wasn't even critical.

501

: 00:22:27

It was like, she wanted something.

502

: 00:22:28

She wanted something that she could like

new sneakers or something like that.

503

: 00:22:32

Obviously she didn't need

new sneakers in that moment.

504

: 00:22:34

It was a process.

505

: 00:22:36

And I said, yeah, okay I'll try

to do this, but I got to take

506

: 00:22:39

care of a couple of other things.

507

: 00:22:40

Oh, really?

508

: 00:22:42

So you're the founder of the

company of dads and you can't take

509

: 00:22:46

me to get my sneakers right now.

510

: 00:22:48

And I'm like, Oh my God, what are you,

no, I cannot no, I, sorry, I'm not, no.

511

: 00:22:55

And but the bigger, more serious

question is, yeah, I, my, my parents,

512

: 00:22:58

they as I say, they were horrible

at being married, and turns out they

513

: 00:23:03

were even worse at being divorced.

514

: 00:23:06

But, they were a product of their time.

515

: 00:23:09

This is, the 1980s, the 1990s

and, some other people, like Dr.

516

: 00:23:13

Gary Barker at Equimundo, he

talks about the man box and,

517

: 00:23:16

the, these sort of stereotypes.

518

: 00:23:19

And, my mom.

519

: 00:23:21

Was a teacher and then she went

back to school and became a nurse.

520

: 00:23:23

As if, those are the only two things

that, that moms could do back then.

521

: 00:23:26

And my dad He sold stuff and in the

process of selling things from, cars

522

: 00:23:30

to everything you could imagine you

wouldn't just go home at the end of

523

: 00:23:34

a day of selling whatever you were

selling, even though back then, a car

524

: 00:23:37

dealership was open probably from 9

to 5 if, even that, and you wouldn't

525

: 00:23:41

go home at 5 o'clock, you would go

out and have drinks with your buddies.

526

: 00:23:44

And then when they would call the

restaurant or the bar, wherever you

527

: 00:23:47

were, that you would, somebody, the

bartender would say, Oh, yeah, he left.

528

: 00:23:50

He left 10 minutes ago.

529

: 00:23:52

And that was just I don't hold any

of that against them because I don't

530

: 00:23:56

think they knew a different way to be.

531

: 00:24:00

Now, as you said, sometimes when we don't

have that, those parents who are parenting

532

: 00:24:06

in the way that we might want to have

been parented that we might be behind.

533

: 00:24:09

And I guess I would flip that

around and say, we also could be

534

: 00:24:13

way ahead because we say, okay,

I'm not going to do those following

535

: 00:24:16

five things that really bothered me.

536

: 00:24:19

Okay.

537

: 00:24:19

And I was fortunate.

538

: 00:24:20

I've always had great mentors

throughout my whole life.

539

: 00:24:24

And, my maternal grandfather, that's my

grandfather, but he was a real mentor.

540

: 00:24:28

He was a retired post office worker.

541

: 00:24:30

And back in the day when you retired.

542

: 00:24:32

Yeah, he retired from the post office,

got a pension, and then he played golf

543

: 00:24:35

at a municipal course three days a week

with his retired post office buddies.

544

: 00:24:38

And he was always available.

545

: 00:24:41

He was always available for me to pick

me up, to take me places, to talk to me.

546

: 00:24:45

He's the reason I play golf, he's

the reason I mean, I didn't grow up

547

: 00:24:47

I grew up the opposite of rich, so

it's not like I was playing at fancy

548

: 00:24:50

country clubs or anything like that.

549

: 00:24:51

I loved golf.

550

: 00:24:52

Just being out there in the

game meant so much to me because

551

: 00:24:55

of the time we had together.

552

: 00:24:56

But he was the first,

of many mentors I had.

553

: 00:24:59

And, what do mentors do?

554

: 00:25:01

They care about you.

555

: 00:25:02

They listen to you they're present for

you they ask you questions about you.

556

: 00:25:07

They don't just talk about them and

what they've done, they ask you about

557

: 00:25:10

you and so those are all the lessons

that I took to when I became a dad.

558

: 00:25:16

I just wanted to be there.

559

: 00:25:18

And what did that mean?

560

: 00:25:19

I still wanted to do the

things that I enjoy for myself.

561

: 00:25:21

I still wanted to have fun, with my wife.

562

: 00:25:23

I still wanted to work hard.

563

: 00:25:24

But I worked a lot of those things, if

you had four different demands on, on, on

564

: 00:25:29

your time, I said, okay, how do I do this

so that, I can be there for my daughters?

565

: 00:25:34

And so a lot of times, like during a,

school week, you only have a couple

566

: 00:25:38

hours when they get home from school.

567

: 00:25:40

And so one thing we do pretty

much every day of the week.

568

: 00:25:43

Unless somebody's traveling is we have

dinner together, and so we make sure we

569

: 00:25:47

do that and we ask questions and then

You know, we take turns sitting in their

570

: 00:25:50

rooms, you know While they're doing

homework and just you know talking to

571

: 00:25:54

them and listening and you know What

happened nine times out of ten nothing

572

: 00:25:57

happens, But it's that tenth time when

they say something to you and the only

573

: 00:26:02

way you got that is But being there

by but being present and the flip side

574

: 00:26:06

is you know again, I still love golf.

575

: 00:26:08

I still play, a lot of golf.

576

: 00:26:10

But, I'm gonna go, play on a

Thursday, or I'm gonna go play

577

: 00:26:13

on a Friday and work around that.

578

: 00:26:15

I'm not gonna go play on a

Saturday and Sunday when my kids

579

: 00:26:18

aren't in school, and there's so

much, that I could do with them.

580

: 00:26:21

Now, I'm not faulting people to do that,

but that's just me, and the way I want

581

: 00:26:25

to be there for these Saturdays and

Sundays, particularly as I look at, my

582

: 00:26:28

oldest is, school next year, so they're

only a couple more years left before,

583

: 00:26:32

she goes off to college is on her way.

584

: 00:26:35

Yeah.

585

: 00:26:36

Yeah.

586

: 00:26:37

I think that.

587

: 00:26:38

That's powerful because we often take

for granted, our, we don't, I think there

588

: 00:26:44

is a general idea out there that it's

really hard to stay present because we

589

: 00:26:51

have these devices in our pockets all

the time that are distracting us, right?

590

: 00:26:54

And we have a million other things and

it's hard being, it's hard being a parent.

591

: 00:26:58

It's hard being a parent to a teenager.

592

: 00:27:00

I have a teenager at home as well.

593

: 00:27:02

And.

594

: 00:27:03

And while I don't disagree that it's

challenging, being a parent is not easy.

595

: 00:27:07

There's, you got to be ready for anything.

596

: 00:27:09

But I think to your a great point you

made there is being present and not

597

: 00:27:14

expecting something because like you

said One out of 10 times you might get

598

: 00:27:19

a little nugget of gold right there.

599

: 00:27:21

That's like that connection point

with your kids that if you're not

600

: 00:27:25

present, you're going to miss because

you're missing already 9 times.

601

: 00:27:29

So it's if you don't give

yourself enough shots.

602

: 00:27:32

Then you won't really get what

you need or they won't really,

603

: 00:27:35

they won't get what they need.

604

: 00:27:37

I know my teen loves TikTok, loves

like sitting down and sharing TikTok.

605

: 00:27:42

I don't like it.

606

: 00:27:43

I got to be honest, but I'll watch them

with her because that's what she needs.

607

: 00:27:49

And you got to sometimes do some things

you don't want to do as a parent.

608

: 00:27:53

Just that's like kind of a I

guess a lesson for life, but.

609

: 00:27:57

That's a great story because I think it's

so important not to try to force kids to

610

: 00:28:00

do the things that we want to do, but to

be there and participate in their lives.

611

: 00:28:06

Now, I'm fortunate that two of

my three daughters like to play

612

: 00:28:08

golf with me, so that's a benefit.

613

: 00:28:10

But the oldest one doesn't, and she, for

her birthday, she wants tickets to this,

614

: 00:28:13

McWright, who's a young Canadian singer.

615

: 00:28:17

And she said, Dad, will you take me in?

616

: 00:28:19

I said, absolutely.

617

: 00:28:20

And my wife says, do you want to go

listen to your fanta tape with McRae?

618

: 00:28:24

I said, no.

619

: 00:28:24

Absolutely not.

620

: 00:28:25

No, not at all.

621

: 00:28:25

No.

622

: 00:28:26

Not at all.

623

: 00:28:26

But it will just be.

624

: 00:28:28

Gold and I really tried to like

around birthdays with my daughters.

625

: 00:28:32

I really tried to encourage

them to ask for an experience.

626

: 00:28:36

And it's just, you need stuff, you

need clothes, you need sneakers,

627

: 00:28:39

but you like the experiences.

628

: 00:28:41

And then, my wife and I'll take turns,

particularly like when they turn

629

: 00:28:44

10, we each took them to something.

630

: 00:28:47

different, and just try to be there.

631

: 00:28:48

Or another example is like, whenever

they need to be driven around on a

632

: 00:28:52

weekend with their friends, I always

put my hand up and volunteer to do it,

633

: 00:28:56

because you sit in the car and there

my daughter is with two or three of her

634

: 00:28:59

friends, and you turn the radio on low,

and they forget that you're there, and

635

: 00:29:03

then you really get to hear what are

they, what are they concerned about?

636

: 00:29:07

What are they happy about?

637

: 00:29:08

What are they struggling with?

638

: 00:29:09

And you only get that by, Maybe this is

the training as a journalist, but you only

639

: 00:29:13

get that by being there and listening.

640

: 00:29:15

If you ask Hey, how are you?

641

: 00:29:18

Any problems at school?

642

: 00:29:19

No.

643

: 00:29:20

When everything going fine.

644

: 00:29:21

Yeah.

645

: 00:29:22

Okay, great.

646

: 00:29:22

And that's, I'm not the only one then.

647

: 00:29:24

Yeah.

648

: 00:29:27

I pick my kids up every day.

649

: 00:29:28

I'm lucky enough to get to do that.

650

: 00:29:30

Drive them and pick them

up from school every day.

651

: 00:29:32

And.

652

: 00:29:33

Like clockwork, get in the

car, like, how's your day?

653

: 00:29:36

I try to even I used to

say like, how was your day?

654

: 00:29:39

And I always would get

the one word answer.

655

: 00:29:42

I was good.

656

: 00:29:43

So I've tried to like, learn

to ask different questions.

657

: 00:29:46

So I'll ask Hey what was the

favorite, what was your most

658

: 00:29:48

favorite part about today?

659

: 00:29:49

Or what was the worst part about today?

660

: 00:29:51

What made you feel bad?

661

: 00:29:53

But my son is smart, he's eight years old

and he'll be like, Oh, there was nothing.

662

: 00:29:58

There was nothing bad today.

663

: 00:29:59

Or there was nothing great today.

664

: 00:30:00

Like he'll just still answer.

665

: 00:30:01

No, Mike, man, I'll tell you what I do.

666

: 00:30:03

I make them give me three things.

667

: 00:30:05

I'm like, what are the three

best things that happened today?

668

: 00:30:08

What are the three?

669

: 00:30:09

Worst things that happened to him.

670

: 00:30:11

And today we were listening to

a radio show, when I dropped

671

: 00:30:13

the two older ones off.

672

: 00:30:14

And, Morning Drive TV,

and it was really funny.

673

: 00:30:17

They were talking about are you were you

the worst kid in your town, or are you

674

: 00:30:21

the parent of the worst kid in your town?

675

: 00:30:23

And so after they, the

stories were hilarious.

676

: 00:30:25

And so afterwards I said to

both of them, I said, All right.

677

: 00:30:29

Who's the worst kid in eighth grade?

678

: 00:30:30

Who's the worst kid in sixth grade?

679

: 00:30:31

And what surprised me is these are

kids names that I'd never heard before.

680

: 00:30:36

Like you hear, they complain

about the same kids all the time.

681

: 00:30:38

They're friends with the same kids.

682

: 00:30:39

Talk about it.

683

: 00:30:39

It was like, I'm like, what did they do?

684

: 00:30:41

And they told me, I'm like, wow.

685

: 00:30:45

But again, it's something to talk

about, from that, like that, yeah.

686

: 00:30:48

I want to pivot to like how you

manage your home with your wife.

687

: 00:30:52

So obviously, there's, Ibrotzky.

688

: 00:30:54

Came out with Fair Play and I'm a

certified Fair Play facilitator.

689

: 00:30:58

I love the work she's done so much that

I decided to go through her program

690

: 00:31:03

and become a facilitator for that.

691

: 00:31:05

Really opened my eyes to the mental

load at home and what in traditional

692

: 00:31:09

households, the wives typically handle

the majority of the home organization.

693

: 00:31:14

And I would imagine

lead dads are dads that.

694

: 00:31:19

Get it in a way or want to get it

and I think some of that some of the

695

: 00:31:25

beauty of what Eve has done is really

brought the language to life where it's

696

: 00:31:29

becoming more into our modern lexicon

of mental load and invisible labor.

697

: 00:31:34

And I think, slowly more men are

learning about these types of things.

698

: 00:31:37

There's certainly some resistance there.

699

: 00:31:39

But I'm curious just for your own

personal life Paul, you're a lead dad.

700

: 00:31:44

I know you said you love Eve.

701

: 00:31:45

Like, how did you guys, before,

before Fairplay even came out, did

702

: 00:31:49

you guys have a system in place?

703

: 00:31:51

Do you use Fairplay or do you

have some other ways of doing it?

704

: 00:31:55

The cards are right behind me.

705

: 00:31:56

If you're looking over my left

show, the cards are right there.

706

: 00:31:59

Yeah, we play to our strengths.

707

: 00:32:00

That that's the secret sauce.

708

: 00:32:02

And what does that mean?

709

: 00:32:03

I'm hyper organized.

710

: 00:32:04

So I manage the family calendar.

711

: 00:32:07

Everything's on the calendar.

712

: 00:32:08

I don't really think twice about,

emptying the trash or doing the

713

: 00:32:12

dishes or doing the laundry.

714

: 00:32:13

I sometimes find doing the laundry

cathartic because I'll wait and I'll

715

: 00:32:16

get, Three tubs of clothes and I'll

sit and watch, sports or something and

716

: 00:32:20

fold them, and so it's not a big deal.

717

: 00:32:22

My wife is really good and really

thoughtful, more thoughtful than I am

718

: 00:32:25

around the presents for the kids and

the themes of the birthday parties.

719

: 00:32:30

And so she enjoys that.

720

: 00:32:31

And so she does that.

721

: 00:32:32

And I don't, I literally

don't do anything.

722

: 00:32:34

We're a family that celebrates Christmas.

723

: 00:32:36

Christmas.

724

: 00:32:37

Yes, wow, that's a great gift.

725

: 00:32:38

I don't even know that but it works out

because you know we've planned it when

726

: 00:32:43

it comes to vacations like we're already

talking about next year and one of them

727

: 00:32:48

She's picked and she's gonna do it soup to

nuts That's the one like around Christmas

728

: 00:32:53

time and the one when I my kids have a

a winter spring break type thing There's

729

: 00:32:57

a place that I really want to check out

and so I'm gonna you know You And that

730

: 00:33:02

just, but it plays to our strengths.

731

: 00:33:03

And yeah, do we have a conversation

first and be like, Hey, do you want

732

: 00:33:07

to go to this place or that place?

733

: 00:33:09

Yeah, that sounds pretty good.

734

: 00:33:10

Great, let's do it.

735

: 00:33:10

And then we take it from there, but it's

all about, playing to our strengths to an

736

: 00:33:14

extreme, almost like I was leaving today

and my wife had to get straight in city.

737

: 00:33:18

I was taking our youngest to school and

my wife was bringing out the recycling.

738

: 00:33:22

I'm like looking at it.

739

: 00:33:23

I was like rubber necking on the highway.

740

: 00:33:24

I'm like, what in the world

are you doing over that?

741

: 00:33:28

Wow.

742

: 00:33:29

I was like, it was like,

I've never seen that.

743

: 00:33:30

It'd be, it'd be the equivalent

of literally of me, like

744

: 00:33:33

I saw this dress here.

745

: 00:33:35

I'm going to order it.

746

: 00:33:36

What are you doing?

747

: 00:33:37

It was so like, we're just in this

and it worked and it works for us.

748

: 00:33:40

Yeah.

749

: 00:33:41

Yeah.

750

: 00:33:41

I think, one of the things I've

learned over the last, I would

751

: 00:33:44

say like three, four years Is

that I never was doing enough.

752

: 00:33:47

I really wasn't like in the 1st,

I've been married now 10 years

753

: 00:33:50

or it'll be 10 years this year.

754

: 00:33:52

The 1st probably 6, I worked in

construction as a construction

755

: 00:33:56

professional working tons of hours,

bringing home decent money and not

756

: 00:34:00

that I didn't do anything at home.

757

: 00:34:01

I did.

758

: 00:34:01

I did, certainly a share of the work

at home, but I wouldn't call my, I

759

: 00:34:05

wouldn't have called myself a lead that

by any means, and I definitely didn't

760

: 00:34:10

understand, any of these concepts.

761

: 00:34:14

And I, what I love about life in

general is that we can always do better.

762

: 00:34:18

We can always get better.

763

: 00:34:20

We should always be trying to get

better and you can't get better

764

: 00:34:24

if you don't know something.

765

: 00:34:25

And so what FairBlade did for me

was really like open my eyes to

766

: 00:34:30

this idea that There's way more

going on that you can't even see.

767

: 00:34:37

Then you even realize, and I think

for a lot of men, that's a hard

768

: 00:34:40

concept if they haven't lived it.

769

: 00:34:42

I was blessed to have been

laid off after the pandemic.

770

: 00:34:47

It was to be fair I was a construction

project manager hated my job.

771

: 00:34:50

I should have left probably years

before that just really wasn't

772

: 00:34:53

fulfilling, but I was laid off.

773

: 00:34:55

And so then it was done for me.

774

: 00:34:57

And I started being home more

and I started actually being

775

: 00:35:00

able to like experience that.

776

: 00:35:03

What that meant, and yeah, it's if

you're listening to this and you're

777

: 00:35:06

a dad and you don't know what mental

load is, let's say you're there.

778

: 00:35:11

I think it's really wise

for you to Google it.

779

: 00:35:16

I'm not saying you don't

have to hire anybody.

780

: 00:35:17

You don't have to buy anything.

781

: 00:35:18

You can, everything's free these days.

782

: 00:35:20

If you want the information,

it's on the internet.

783

: 00:35:22

Find out like what all this means,

because that's going to elevate your

784

: 00:35:27

leadership at home and that ownership

mindset at home, because I love the

785

: 00:35:31

idea of playing to your strengths.

786

: 00:35:33

But I think the key to that is that

you're also, in your heart and in

787

: 00:35:37

your in your mind that there's a

lot that goes on behind the scenes.

788

: 00:35:42

Under the rug, like not out and, laundry

dishes, you could see those things.

789

: 00:35:46

And it's yeah, if there's

dishes in the sink, clean them.

790

: 00:35:48

If there's laundry to be folded, do that.

791

: 00:35:51

That's really easy.

792

: 00:35:52

The thing that's not so easy

is the emotional labor and the

793

: 00:35:54

invisible labor of organizing,

planning, taking care of your kids.

794

: 00:36:00

Emotional needs, like you were

pointing out being present in the

795

: 00:36:03

car, like listening to what they're

really concerned about, cause that's

796

: 00:36:05

really a great way to find out.

797

: 00:36:08

But that requires you to be present,

be off your phone, turn the radio down.

798

: 00:36:12

There's are little tricks and tips that

I think a lot of dads miss out on, not

799

: 00:36:16

because they don't want to do better,

but because they just don't know,

800

: 00:36:20

and so like part of my mission with

this podcast is to share your wisdom,

801

: 00:36:25

share the wisdom of all my guests.

802

: 00:36:27

With the world so that dads that are

listening can take something from

803

: 00:36:32

the episode and apply it to their own

life and just become a better dad,

804

: 00:36:36

whether that's a lead dad or not,

just be more present because to your

805

: 00:36:41

point, our kids are leaving us at

some point, they are going to grow up.

806

: 00:36:45

And they're going to leave the house

and you can't get your time back.

807

: 00:36:48

That's not something that's possible yet.

808

: 00:36:50

Yeah.

809

: 00:36:51

That's great.

810

: 00:36:51

It's a great point.

811

: 00:36:52

Two things I'll say.

812

: 00:36:52

One, like a simple thing, simple hack.

813

: 00:36:55

In our house, we have Screen Free Sunday.

814

: 00:36:56

You could do Screen Free

Saturday and Sunday.

815

: 00:36:58

But the idea of Screen Free Sunday

is everybody puts their phones away.

816

: 00:37:02

And my daughters are not, the two that

have phones are not on their phones.

817

: 00:37:06

And we do stuff as a family and,

we've always done it, so there

818

: 00:37:09

isn't any pushback anymore.

819

: 00:37:11

The 14 year old will push the

envelope every so often, but we

820

: 00:37:13

have this app called Custodio with

a Q, where literally you press a

821

: 00:37:17

button and it shuts everybody off.

822

: 00:37:18

Like literally everything in the house.

823

: 00:37:21

But it forces you to engage

and it forces you because you

824

: 00:37:24

can only be bored for so long.

825

: 00:37:25

You can only, you're not going to

read a book for 13 hours of the day.

826

: 00:37:30

And then it forces you to

do something after a while.

827

: 00:37:32

Hey, why don't we're lucky where we live.

828

: 00:37:33

We can walk into town and like 20 minutes,

walk to town, get an ice cream, walk back.

829

: 00:37:37

It's, you have that time out and about.

830

: 00:37:39

Second thing I'll say is

to your point around men.

831

: 00:37:41

I'd say that, resentment in a relationship

is an awful lot like, dust under a couch.

832

: 00:37:46

You often don't know it's there until

you buy a new couch or you move.

833

: 00:37:50

At which point you say, holy cow, how

did all that resentment get there?

834

: 00:37:53

When we talk about what Eve's

point is around mental load,

835

: 00:37:57

it doesn't build up on day one.

836

: 00:37:58

Most people don't marry sociopaths,

and if they do marry a sociopath,

837

: 00:38:02

the chances are they don't choose

to have children with the sociopath.

838

: 00:38:04

It's one of those things where,

Is you start doing one thing, then

839

: 00:38:08

you do two things, then you do five

things, the next thing you do, you're

840

: 00:38:10

doing twenty things, and your partner

may not even realize that, because

841

: 00:38:16

you're keeping, it's all that mental

load, so how do you get that out?

842

: 00:38:19

Eve's cards are an amazing way

to bring that out, play cards.

843

: 00:38:23

We often tell our dads, it's even

simpler than the cards, is you do

844

: 00:38:27

what we call the paper test, your

wife writes down everything that she

845

: 00:38:30

thinks she does and then writes down

everything that she thinks you do.

846

: 00:38:33

And then you write down everything

that you do and then everything

847

: 00:38:36

that you think your wife does.

848

: 00:38:38

Do this on a Saturday, a cup of tea,

glass of wine, whatever your thing is

849

: 00:38:42

in a neutral area and then you compare.

850

: 00:38:44

And the one thing that I always guarantee

is that those lists will not be the same.

851

: 00:38:48

And that's the starting point for the

conversation, because people are like,

852

: 00:38:51

Oh geez, I didn't think you did that,

or you don't know that I do this?

853

: 00:38:54

I do this, and that's really important.

854

: 00:38:56

And then you start having a conversation,

and as I said the earlier you have

855

: 00:38:59

those conversations, the better,

because when you get too much resentment

856

: 00:39:01

building up, it takes a while.

857

: 00:39:03

It takes a while to unpack it.

858

: 00:39:04

But that's just, what is it?

859

: 00:39:05

That's being present, it's

showing up, and it's really

860

: 00:39:08

communicating with your spouse.

861

: 00:39:09

A hundred percent.

862

: 00:39:11

And I think a lot of the men that I

coach they'll tell me they get very

863

: 00:39:15

defensive in those types of conversations

because they think they do so much.

864

: 00:39:20

And then they feel almost

attacked in a way coming at that

865

: 00:39:24

conversation as adversaries.

866

: 00:39:26

And I would, I always coach them and

tell them, Hey, like you guys are a

867

: 00:39:30

team, you got married for a reason.

868

: 00:39:33

Assuming that you're still on board

with that and you want to stay together

869

: 00:39:36

and you want to have a family together

and you want to have a house together

870

: 00:39:39

and a life together and build, you've

got to dig down into the roots of

871

: 00:39:43

what, like where that comes from.

872

: 00:39:45

Because that's something that, you

shouldn't take that personally.

873

: 00:39:48

It has, it's not an

attack on your character.

874

: 00:39:50

It has nothing to do with you.

875

: 00:39:53

It's just the way it, Was and now you're

trying to do something different and

876

: 00:39:58

that's all it's and there's no meaning

behind it doesn't mean you're a bad

877

: 00:40:00

husband It doesn't mean you're a bad

person You've got to see it first and

878

: 00:40:06

then you can take action But you can't

take action on something that you don't

879

: 00:40:09

see and that's where like that invisible

piece It's I know I love that exercise you

880

: 00:40:13

described and I think Encourage everybody.

881

: 00:40:15

Certainly that's a free exercise too.

882

: 00:40:17

You got pen and paper in your house, just

make a list and but no strings attached.

883

: 00:40:21

No, no resentment there.

884

: 00:40:23

Have the conversation be open and

vulnerable and don't take it personally.

885

: 00:40:27

Like more than likely if you're

a dad, you probably aren't

886

: 00:40:31

doing as much as your wife.

887

: 00:40:34

Maybe you are.

888

: 00:40:34

And that's awesome.

889

: 00:40:35

If you are, that's great,

but most likely you're not.

890

: 00:40:37

And that's okay.

891

: 00:40:38

But that now we can talk

about it and we can see it.

892

: 00:40:41

And we can change it if we want to.

893

: 00:40:43

And everybody can do things differently.

894

: 00:40:45

There's no right way or wrong

way necessarily to do or not

895

: 00:40:48

do, not run your own household.

896

: 00:40:50

But one of the main things to

your point is communication.

897

: 00:40:54

Communicate with your spouse openly,

honestly, and don't take it personally.

898

: 00:40:59

Just learn and grow.

899

: 00:41:01

I think that's One of the things a

lot of men I coach struggle with is

900

: 00:41:04

this idea that, oh man I thought I

was this amazing husband, and now I'm

901

: 00:41:09

being told I'm not, or I feel like I'm

not, and it's a very internal thing.

902

: 00:41:14

feeling to an external message, but it's

the wrong message they're receiving.

903

: 00:41:19

It's no, like you just didn't know.

904

: 00:41:21

And now you do.

905

: 00:41:22

So let's do something about it.

906

: 00:41:24

So I did this interview last

week with this guy is going

907

: 00:41:27

to be lead dad of the week.

908

: 00:41:28

And Yeah, I'd long joke that, when

you're on your deathbed your last

909

: 00:41:31

words are not, if only I could have

one more PowerPoint presentation no

910

: 00:41:35

and this guy had been working crazy

hours and technology crazy hours.

911

: 00:41:41

And in his thirties, had a

massive heart attack and was dead.

912

: 00:41:46

And as they brought him back,

he's he didn't think about work.

913

: 00:41:50

He only thought about his

kids and what he had missed.

914

: 00:41:53

And it gave him that opportunity.

915

: 00:41:55

to rethink things.

916

: 00:41:56

He still had a very senior job, but

he just started to delegate better, he

917

: 00:41:59

started to, leave at a normal time, he

got much more involved with his kids, and

918

: 00:42:03

it's been literally life changing, but

he's, his story is so literal to something

919

: 00:42:10

that I talk about metaphorically, in that

he literally died, and that was a moment

920

: 00:42:14

where he did not think about work, when

he was, he thought about his kids, and

921

: 00:42:18

that's what we'll all look back and say,

so how do you try to, make it a little

922

: 00:42:23

bit, And at least I believe it comes down

to having those tougher conversations.

923

: 00:42:29

Another guy we had on named Clint Bruce,

who is a pretty well known Navy SEAL,

924

: 00:42:33

he has a phrase hard now, easy later.

925

: 00:42:36

Easy now, hard later.

926

: 00:42:37

So if you're having those hard

conversations now once you get through

927

: 00:42:42

it, it's going to make it easier later.

928

: 00:42:43

Because you're going to say, okay,

these are the things that I can do,

929

: 00:42:46

and I'm going to own these things,

and, Somebody's got to do them and

930

: 00:42:49

then we can focus on the more, the more

enjoyable stuff, the time with our kids,

931

: 00:42:52

the time, with the family in general.

932

: 00:42:54

Yeah.

933

: 00:42:55

Yeah.

934

: 00:42:55

That's so good.

935

: 00:42:56

It's so good, Paul.

936

: 00:42:57

I, it's like we get so wrapped up

in our busy life that we forget that

937

: 00:43:02

there's life to live, and the idea

that, our own mortality can be actually

938

: 00:43:07

a Almost like a motivator, right?

939

: 00:43:10

That people don't like

to talk about death.

940

: 00:43:13

They don't like to talk about dying.

941

: 00:43:14

They like to pretend like

it's never going to happen.

942

: 00:43:16

But the truth is, it will.

943

: 00:43:18

It will happen to all of us.

944

: 00:43:19

That's where we're all headed.

945

: 00:43:19

Same place.

946

: 00:43:20

We can't help it.

947

: 00:43:21

Not to say, not to bring this to a morbid

place and that we have to talk about it

948

: 00:43:24

every day and think about it all the time.

949

: 00:43:26

But the point being that.

950

: 00:43:28

You're not going to sit there on your

deathbed, if you're lucky enough to

951

: 00:43:30

know that you're dying, which doesn't

always happen, but if you're lucky

952

: 00:43:33

enough to reflect, and you're not

going to say, I wish I had more time

953

: 00:43:36

at a PowerPoint or more time working.

954

: 00:43:39

I want to, I would wish I had

more time with my family, with

955

: 00:43:41

my kids, with my wife, with my

friends, with the people I love.

956

: 00:43:44

That's what people want.

957

: 00:43:45

So why aren't you doing it now?

958

: 00:43:48

That's, so let me ask you though, Paul.

959

: 00:43:51

So you painted like a picture of that's

I think what I want, I guess what

960

: 00:43:56

I'm trying to get at is, everything

sounds great, but there's got to

961

: 00:44:00

be something you struggle with.

962

: 00:44:02

So I like to share a story that I like

to have my guests share a story that

963

: 00:44:06

they, you know, a struggle, something

that they've struggled with in the

964

: 00:44:08

past, maybe come through, or maybe

they're even struggling with right

965

: 00:44:11

now, just so that we understand.

966

: 00:44:13

I want the men and dads out there.

967

: 00:44:15

This isn't Oh, just do that.

968

: 00:44:17

And everything's good.

969

: 00:44:18

Like we all struggle

and we all have issues.

970

: 00:44:20

issues that we deal with.

971

: 00:44:21

What's something that you either

you and your wife have struggled

972

: 00:44:23

with or you've struggled with as

a dad and kind of come through it

973

: 00:44:27

or you're still learning about it?

974

: 00:44:29

Yeah, I struggle with time.

975

: 00:44:30

And not, not having enough of it.

976

: 00:44:33

And, I'm one of those weirdos who dreams

of having, a zero unread email box.

977

: 00:44:39

And I'm not very good at, some of

the ones that are pushed way down are

978

: 00:44:42

things that I really need to attend to.

979

: 00:44:44

And what will I try to do?

980

: 00:44:45

During the week, I'll try to stay up

late and answer those emails and get

981

: 00:44:49

stuff out, but I do that at a cost

because if I'm not careful, I come

982

: 00:44:54

into bed and I wake my wife up and then

she's up and I don't want to do that.

983

: 00:44:57

And so that's a balance of okay.

984

: 00:44:59

What can wait until tomorrow or the next

day because, in this waking hours okay,

985

: 00:45:05

I'm going to, do this, synchronous work.

986

: 00:45:07

I'm going to, do stuff with my kids.

987

: 00:45:08

I'm going to have dinner.

988

: 00:45:09

My wife's going to be there.

989

: 00:45:10

Maybe we'll take a walk after dinner.

990

: 00:45:11

That'll be nice, but there's always

that other stuff that has gone, undone

991

: 00:45:17

or unanswered and, what I hate more

than anything is that you go to a

992

: 00:45:20

new doctor or something like that and

they send you a whole bunch of forms.

993

: 00:45:22

I'm like, don't send me the forms.

994

: 00:45:23

Don't, I don't have time for the forms.

995

: 00:45:25

Can you just, I'll pay you 50 bucks

to just call me on the telephone

996

: 00:45:28

and ask me those same questions

and I'll tell you everything.

997

: 00:45:31

Maybe not.

998

: 00:45:32

I'll pay you 25 at least.

999

: 00:45:33

I'll only pay you 25.

: 1000

00:45:35,729 --> 00:45:36,409

But 25 I would.

: 1001

00:45:36,609 --> 00:45:40,179

And so that's the struggle of

like time and how do you fit, the

: 1002

00:45:40,189 --> 00:45:41,159

right amount of things in there.

: 1003

00:45:41,159 --> 00:45:43,519

And I had this guy early

on who was advising me.

: 1004

00:45:43,549 --> 00:45:51,184

And he had this idea that, if you have

a jar, You had sand pebbles, and rocks.

: 1005

00:45:51,394 --> 00:45:55,754

And the amount that you could fit

in the jar was dependent on the

: 1006

00:45:55,754 --> 00:45:56,869

order that you put in the jar.

: 1007

00:45:57,889 --> 00:46:01,849

And of course, the rocks were your

most important objects, the big ideas

: 1008

00:46:01,859 --> 00:46:05,389

that you had and the sand was all the

stuff, all the life, all the stuff

: 1009

00:46:05,389 --> 00:46:06,849

that, just would build up or whatever.

: 1010

00:46:07,249 --> 00:46:09,439

And, obviously the answer is simple,

you got to put the rocks in first.

: 1011

00:46:09,479 --> 00:46:10,499

What are your big priorities?

: 1012

00:46:10,499 --> 00:46:13,139

And my big priority is,

my wife and my kids.

: 1013

00:46:13,139 --> 00:46:14,739

And so that's the rock that goes in there.

: 1014

00:46:14,739 --> 00:46:18,029

But as an entrepreneur, you And starting,

it's a for profit company that has a for

: 1015

00:46:18,029 --> 00:46:21,659

profit business, we make money when we

go into companies, you've gotta, manage

: 1016

00:46:21,659 --> 00:46:25,039

that, and what are the rocks that you

can fit in at a certain time, and also

: 1017

00:46:25,039 --> 00:46:29,169

to be careful when you're managing your

time, that it's not too much sand, that

: 1018

00:46:29,169 --> 00:46:32,529

you're not just, however much I would

like to read everything that comes out

: 1019

00:46:32,539 --> 00:46:35,859

about every golfer, male or female,

today, at a certain point, you gotta

: 1020

00:46:35,859 --> 00:46:39,939

say I can't take any more of that in,

because that is, if I, maybe I can do

: 1021

00:46:39,939 --> 00:46:43,259

that for twenty minutes a day, but I

can't do it for two hours, because I

: 1022

00:46:43,259 --> 00:46:45,829

gotta get this other stuff, and I gotta

make sure I have enough time for sleep.

: 1023

00:46:45,829 --> 00:46:49,459

So it all comes down to time and how

you really prioritize what the most

: 1024

00:46:49,459 --> 00:46:52,979

important things are, and then accept

that those other things that you'd

: 1025

00:46:52,989 --> 00:46:55,363

really like to get done may not get done.

: 1026

00:46:58,063 --> 00:46:59,563

That's great advice.

: 1027

00:46:59,593 --> 00:47:02,203

And I appreciate you sharing that

because that is, that's something I

: 1028

00:47:02,213 --> 00:47:05,093

think a lot of people struggle with is

this idea that they don't have time.

: 1029

00:47:05,093 --> 00:47:07,923

Any excuse that you

hear why can't you do X?

: 1030

00:47:08,233 --> 00:47:09,043

I don't have enough time.

: 1031

00:47:09,063 --> 00:47:10,593

That's a very common excuse.

: 1032

00:47:11,013 --> 00:47:12,133

And I think what.

: 1033

00:47:12,888 --> 00:47:15,938

To your point, it's your priorities

might be mixed up a little bit.

: 1034

00:47:15,948 --> 00:47:19,598

Maybe you just need to shift some things

around and maybe those lower priority

: 1035

00:47:19,628 --> 00:47:23,108

things are taking up too much of that

time that you think you don't have.

: 1036

00:47:23,698 --> 00:47:26,941

One of the things that I like

to do myself is like every day.

: 1037

00:47:26,941 --> 00:47:26,973

Yeah.

: 1038

00:47:27,193 --> 00:47:28,743

three times a day, two minutes.

: 1039

00:47:28,743 --> 00:47:32,873

I'll just close my eyes and just

practice like a visualization

: 1040

00:47:32,873 --> 00:47:34,453

exercise because that helps me.

: 1041

00:47:34,813 --> 00:47:37,983

That helps me like, and I,

what I typically do is I think

: 1042

00:47:37,993 --> 00:47:40,713

about how do I want to show up

today for my kids, for my wife.

: 1043

00:47:41,093 --> 00:47:44,073

It re centers me and that's just

something that works for me.

: 1044

00:47:44,083 --> 00:47:46,273

That doesn't mean it's going to

work for you or for anyone else.

: 1045

00:47:46,668 --> 00:47:51,128

I think it's a good practice for people

that need that, where it's you're

: 1046

00:47:51,128 --> 00:47:52,308

telling me that you're telling the list.

: 1047

00:47:52,338 --> 00:47:54,418

You don't visualize a

PowerPoint presentation.

: 1048

00:47:54,618 --> 00:47:57,968

I do not visualize a

PowerPoint presentation at all.

: 1049

00:48:00,418 --> 00:48:03,718

No, I, sometimes I visualize,

something that I want to happen.

: 1050

00:48:03,728 --> 00:48:04,408

Other times I'll just.

: 1051

00:48:04,908 --> 00:48:07,568

I'll actually visualize,

I love this exercise.

: 1052

00:48:07,888 --> 00:48:11,128

I'll go back to a past experience

where I didn't show up as a, as

: 1053

00:48:11,158 --> 00:48:12,978

the best, best dad or best husband.

: 1054

00:48:13,278 --> 00:48:15,168

And I actually visualize

myself doing it better.

: 1055

00:48:15,638 --> 00:48:20,368

Because what that does for me is that

actually like rewrites that experience to

: 1056

00:48:20,368 --> 00:48:22,943

where it now like has pre programmed me.

: 1057

00:48:23,653 --> 00:48:26,313

For the next time, something

like that comes up to do better.

: 1058

00:48:27,233 --> 00:48:28,803

So yeah it's, for me, it works.

: 1059

00:48:28,853 --> 00:48:31,473

I know it sounds a little woo, maybe

to some people listening to this,

: 1060

00:48:31,473 --> 00:48:35,073

but I really think, having those,

and that's just two minutes in the

: 1061

00:48:35,073 --> 00:48:37,893

morning and the afternoon and evening

before my wife gets home from work.

: 1062

00:48:38,223 --> 00:48:42,103

So like I'm ready and primed

to be the best dad, the best

: 1063

00:48:42,103 --> 00:48:43,513

husband that I can be that day.

: 1064

00:48:43,523 --> 00:48:47,763

And sometimes we miss the mark and

that's okay, but giving yourself that

: 1065

00:48:47,763 --> 00:48:53,933

grace, but also trying to, Reflect on

that and saying, like, how did I, am

: 1066

00:48:53,933 --> 00:48:55,303

I proud of the way I showed up today?

: 1067

00:48:55,303 --> 00:48:57,493

And if not, how can I

show up better tomorrow?

: 1068

00:48:57,723 --> 00:49:01,223

And it's really simple, but I

don't, I think a lot of us pretend

: 1069

00:49:01,223 --> 00:49:04,863

like we're just like, we're

living the same day over and over.

: 1070

00:49:05,193 --> 00:49:07,123

But, hey, Paul, I'm going to wrap up.

: 1071

00:49:07,233 --> 00:49:10,673

I appreciate you being on and really

appreciate you sharing your wisdom

: 1072

00:49:11,183 --> 00:49:14,543

remind everybody where they can

find you what you got going on.

: 1073

00:49:14,593 --> 00:49:18,213

And then if you want to share, Your

last bit of wisdom for the day.

: 1074

00:49:18,633 --> 00:49:21,163

Yeah, thanks Frederick, it's

been a joy talking to you.

: 1075

00:49:21,203 --> 00:49:24,183

Find everything you need

on thecompanyofdads.

: 1076

00:49:24,364 --> 00:49:24,873

com thecompanyofdads.

: 1077

00:49:24,873 --> 00:49:27,703

com Obviously, on all different

social media platforms,

: 1078

00:49:27,703 --> 00:49:28,853

but that's the place to go.

: 1079

00:49:29,153 --> 00:49:31,743

And, any last bit of wisdom is to

come back to what I said earlier.

: 1080

00:49:31,993 --> 00:49:37,078

And that is You know, be proud of your

role as a dad, forget about stereotypes,

: 1081

00:49:37,078 --> 00:49:41,568

forget about masculine norms that you're

supposed to, be embracing just, be in

: 1082

00:49:41,568 --> 00:49:44,778

that moment, be present and enjoy the

time you're having with your kids.

: 1083

00:49:44,778 --> 00:49:47,288

And if you're married, enjoy the

time you're having with your spouse.

: 1084

00:49:47,368 --> 00:49:48,058

That's my last bit.

: 1085

00:49:49,738 --> 00:49:50,178

Love it.

: 1086

00:49:50,658 --> 00:49:51,198

Thanks, Paul.

: 1087

00:49:51,198 --> 00:49:53,378

I appreciate you being on and.

: 1088

00:49:53,948 --> 00:49:58,488

I think our audience is really going

to hear this message and actually be

: 1089

00:49:58,488 --> 00:50:02,398

able to take what you shared today

and elevate their life in some way.

: 1090

00:50:02,398 --> 00:50:04,548

So I really appreciate you

taking the time to do that.

: 1091

00:50:10,298 --> 00:50:10,648

All right.