G-6DEFP72BRX Storytelling & the Power of Community with Dr. Jason Frishman - Dads Interrupted

Episode 4

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Published on:

25th Jun 2024

Storytelling & the Power of Community with Dr. Jason Frishman

Dr. Jason Frishman's dad didn't say the words "I love you" often. But he did write him a magical story.

Perhaps that's why Jason is a narrative therapist and men's coach today.

He openly acknowledges that although he is a men's coach and therapist, he still has his own work to do. Jason tells us his kids are his best teachers and shares how they remind him how important that is.

He talks about the importance of accountability, of being on the path to being the best father he can be, and of including adventure, fun and playfulness into your fatherhood journey.

Jason shares his unique spin on his core values self-assessment to drive actionable core behaviors.

Throughout the conversation, you'll hear insights and tips that emphasize the power of storytelling - how telling our stories in community can heal us from the inside out.

And perhaps to consider that you don't just have a story to tell, but a story to craft.

The words we use matter, and this conversation doesn't disappoint!

All this and more...

This... is Dads Interrupted.

To connect with Jason, check out:

Dr. Jason Frishman, Father. Men's Coach. Psychologist.

LinkedIn

Jason's website:

Connected Fathers

RESOURCE:

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For the latest info on my 1:1 and group coach offerings, check out:

https://www.seatatthetablecoaching.com/

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Transcript
Speaker:

Welcome to the Dads Interrupted podcast.

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I'm super excited today

with the guest that I have.

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His name is Dr.

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Jason Frischman.

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Dr.

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Jason Frischman is a psychologist,

a narrative men's coach, a

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speaker, a facilitator, and a

self described culinary raconteur.

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He is the founder of Journeymen

and the Connected Fathers

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Coaching Program and Community.

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Dr.

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Frischman, welcome.

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Welcome to the show.

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Awesome.

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Thank you so much.

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And, and please, just Jason, the

insurance company is the only

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ones who I have call me doctor.

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Fair enough.

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Fair enough.

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Yeah.

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I appreciate you taking the

time out of your day to come on.

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Absolutely.

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We always ask first question, what does

it mean to you to be an interrupted dad?

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You know, it's interesting when you first

asked that question, it gave me pause.

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I listened, I really thought

a lot and, , I didn't really

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know how you were using it.

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And, , for me, the first thing that came

to mind was almost a humorous thing.

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It was, it interrupted dad as anyone who's

trying to say anything during dinner.

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But taking it that way and then going

deeper, I think it's, it's really

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an interrupted dad for me is, is

anyone who takes those interruptions

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or opportunities for pause.

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and pauses and takes in the silence

or takes in the, the moment and brings

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back to their center and who they want

to be as a dad and who they want to be

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in their family is when I interrupt,

I can use that as an opportunity to

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stop and really you know, Well, you

know, hope it's not too much to say,

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but to cherish the moment, right?

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The more we do that, , the

better our journeys are.

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Love that.

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Well, the work you do with men

is so powerful talking about

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their journeys and their stories.

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I know , you're big on that.

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One of the things I think a lot of men

struggle with, but a lot of people in,

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any gender struggle with is communicating.

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What does it look like?

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You know, you do coaching and

you do group coaching, right?

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Yeah.

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Biggest thing is a group.

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Yeah.

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When you're in your group setting,

is it difficult to get the men

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to open up, how to talk, walk us

through what that experience is like?

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Yeah, it's funny.

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It's one of my favorite experiences.

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Originally I was actually

trained in group work.

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So that was my core.

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That was what I love doing.

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And then I spent, two and a half decades,

mostly doing individual therapy and

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then coming back to this group work.

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It is, for me personally, it's the most

inspiring and energizing that I've had

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in my career because, you know, there's,

it's almost trite to say that it's

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really hard to engage guys in this work.

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And it's true, you know, like it's really

hard to get them to raise their hand and

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volunteer and like say, I'll join this.

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But once they're in you know, I get

chills even just thinking about it

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now because once guys get in they

It's as if we've created a space

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that allows and encourages something

that wants to come out anyway, right?

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And yet, we step out of, I mean, this

is what the entire model for my program

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is, is that I invite guys to step out of

their everyday adventures and drop their

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shoulders and really be able to connect in

a way that is That is useful and helpful.

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So the experience for me getting to,

to witness that or withness that is you

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know, there's a lot of excitement and

there's a lot of creativity and honestly,

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and I say it to my guys almost too much

is that I get, I'm just honored to be

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able to be sort of witness of their

journeys and, who they are becoming.

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You know, I, I have joked that when I

started journeyman, I was so very excited

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about this model that I developed.

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It's so unique.

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It's so good.

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It's so all these things.

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And I was selling the model.

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I was selling these great.

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Sort of techniques and strategies and

metaphors and all of these things.

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And I am still really proud of that.

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Every single guy, without fail, at the

end of the program, when I interview

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them sort of as an end of program

conversation, every single one of

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them says that being in the room with

everyone else or being on Zoom with

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everyone else nodding and shaking

their head was the most powerful part.

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Right?

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So I'm all excited about

this model I created.

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And what's really been helpful is the

thing that I learned very originally.

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Let's get guys into a comfortable

place, give them the opportunity,

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give them the language, and let them

go, let them support one another.

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Right.

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So to me, it's, just an honor.

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It really is.

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It's very cool.

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Yeah, it is cool.

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I love that.

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I can feel you actually gave me goosebumps

while you were talking about it.

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It's like, how do I join?

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Right.

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So we'll get to that later.

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Sure.

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So I have a question about Remind the

listeners, like your, your father,

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yourself, how many kids do you have?

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What are their ages now?

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Absolutely.

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So I have two sons.

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My oldest is 16.

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He just turned 16 a couple of weeks ago.

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And my youngest will

turn 13 in a few weeks.

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All right.

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Actually about a month.

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Yeah.

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So 13 and 16 in, in general and, and two

boys and it's been quite an adventure.

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I'll tell you that.

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Tell me your deepest learnings, lessons

over the years now that your kids are in

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the teenage years when you first became a

dad, you know, there's no playbook know

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how to parent correctly in every moment.

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And now that they're 16 and 13, I imagine

you still haven't found that playbook.

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But tell me like, Over those years,

what are the top three things that

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you've learned as a, dad that really

has helped you become a better dad?

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Yeah.

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I mean, it's, it's a great question.

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We could spend, you know, hours on this

alone, but you know, the, the first piece

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was, I guess the, the very first learning

and it happened relatively early on is

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that I don't know as much as I think I

know, you know, I'm an expert in this.

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I spent decades working with kids.

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Teaching parents, doing all of

these things, and yet my kids

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are still my biggest educators.

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And I told my oldest son that early

on, and now whenever, like, I mess up

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or whenever I, you know, am bad dad

or whatever, he will tell me, he's

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like, remember, I'm your best teacher.

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Remember you have to listen to me and

I'm like, so yeah, I think the, the first

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lesson was really a lesson of humility and

knowing that this is an adventure, I mean,

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that's the core of all the work I do now.

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And what I was doing back then but

it really caught me to lean into

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that right because one of the primary

definition of adventure is you

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don't know what's going to happen.

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And if you think you do.

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You're in trouble.

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And so the first lesson was humility

and really understanding that you

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know, my, my kids both know very deeply

about journeymen and the work I do.

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And often if I'm getting snappy or

irritated or short with them, one of them

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will say, you know, Papa, Would you tell

your guys to talk to their kids this way?

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And I'm like, Oh no.

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So, they are phenomenal and

really they are my best teachers.

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So that, that was one of them.

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The other is, really,

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it's really quite poignant.

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I haven't thought about it this way

and it's kind of emotional because as

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I'm saying these things about my own

learning, I'm learning, I'm seeing how

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deeply embedded they are in the work I do.

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So, Really, the other thing

that they taught me is I

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have to have my act together.

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I have to have, you know, I don't

know if it's okay to swear on here,

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but I have to get my shit together.

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Right?

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I thought I did.

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I think I do.

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I, you know, all of those things.

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And anytime there's a, I don't want

to say a weak spot, but there's a

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place anytime there's a place in my

being that I'm not as proud of myself

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as I'd like to be, they notice.

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And so I have to really not be perfect.

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not be perfect at all, but I have to be

on the path of working on myself in order

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to be as good of a father as I can be.

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And that really fits into humility, right?

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Because if I make a mistake, And

I'm on a path of growth in my own

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way, then I'm going to own it.

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And I'm going to be humble about it.

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And they're going to know

that there's no perfection.

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There's no, you know, getting it right.

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I screw up as much as any of the other

guys in my group, just differently.

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And so when that happens,

I am going to tell my kids.

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I'm going to share it with them.

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I'm going to, you know, in fact,

my youngest kid says, you never,

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you never take responsibility.

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You always tell me I have to.

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And I was like, I still

have a hard time with that.

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You're right.

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And I'm going to do better, you know, and

I'm, and I'm going to try and all of that.

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And then I guess the, the third thing,

which I almost feel like, It doesn't need

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to be stated, but I think it does, is

the importance of, fun and playfulness.

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Right?

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That's who I am at my core.

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I always have been.

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I've been silly.

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I'm, a big kid, I'm crazy,

you know, all of those things.

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And that moments when sort of the

stressors and struggles of, being an

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adult of all those things, when they

get in the way of my playfulness,

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everything else goes to shit.

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Including, and especially my parenting.

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And so for me, the model that I want

to demonstrate for my kids isn't like

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light and not taking things serious,

but taking things seriously and playful,

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playfully, like being able to, to play

through hard times is a, is a resiliency

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factor that I value very strongly.

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Love that.

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What a great answer.

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The one word, the one

word that comes to mind.

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Yeah, you were talking about throughout

that whole thread is accountability,

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you know, that's something that we

all I think struggle with and I adopt

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this term from Eve Roski's book fair

play, but it's the idea of the idea

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of an ownership mindset, not only

owning, you know, what you're doing.

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As far as like tasks at home, but

also owning your mistakes and being

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okay with that, I think I struggled

a long time with feeling guilt and

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shame around making a mistake versus

just saying, you know what, it's okay.

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It's okay to make mistakes.

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What's not okay is to defend it.

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And I think a lot of men struggle with

that default defensiveness, right?

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Your, your partner brings you an

issue or maybe your kid brings

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you something and instead of

validating it, acknowledging it.

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Being accountable for it and for your

part in it and trying to do better the

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next day or the next, you know, moment.

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I found myself often going to a defense

standpoint, Nope, that's not right.

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That didn't happen.

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I didn't say that I didn't do that.

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Whatever the case may be and breaking out

of that pattern of, of poor communication

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really is what it is, you know, is,

is not easy, but it is possible.

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And to your point, you won't

always be perfect, right?

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You're going to still mess up here

and there, but if you can insert

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that pause and say, Hey, I messed up.

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It's okay.

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I'm human.

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I'm going to take accountability.

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I'm going to be humble about

this and get my ego out of the

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way and model for my own kids.

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It's okay to make mistakes.

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We're all learning.

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And to me, your self development

journey is a lifelong process.

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And as long as you're willing to, to

give yourself the grace along the way,

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when you do make those mistakes and not,

I found myself really shaming myself.

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More than anyone else.

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It wasn't my, it wasn't Sarah,

my wife, Sarah, it wasn't

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her saying like, you suck.

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You're the worst.

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It was me telling myself that.

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And so that's a really hard place to be in

and to be a great dad and a great husband.

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So if that's, if that resonates

with any listeners for

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number one, you're not alone.

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Number two, there are ways out.

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You can get coaching.

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You can, you know, go to

therapy read books, listen to

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this podcast, find community.

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Wherever you can, and share your stories.

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I think that's the biggest thing I take

from your program, Jason, is the sharing

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of the stories is where the magic is.

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Absolutely.

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And, you know, one thing

I'll just say around the

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accountability piece and mistakes.

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One of my first mentors above the door

to her office on both sides at a big

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sign that said mistakes are for learning.

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That's it.

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You know, that was, you know, the simplest

three word, you know, piece of wisdom that

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I've had, which is, yeah, if you're not

making mistakes, you are not learning.

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And so we expect that.

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And, and so you're absolutely right

and, you know, also what you're saying

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around community and the sharing of

stories, that's the magic sauce.

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When we're seen, when our stories

are, I have this experience, belief

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and training that our realities,

like truly are driven by the stories

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that are shared between and among us.

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Right?

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And the story we have about a certain

thing changes the way we see it.

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It changes the way we experience it.

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It changes how we interact with the

person, the experience, whatever it is.

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And so, we have to be aware of

stories, and we have to be aware

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of the the way that we tell them.

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The details that we use, the choices

that we make in sharing stories.

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And so that's where the coaching and

therapy is, is that we can evolve

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our stories and we can really build

upon stories and find stories in our

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lives that haven't been been free.

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The language that I use is that

we will have a dominant story of

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our lives that is quite literally

oppressing other stories of who we are.

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And if we can discover them and

help free them a little bit, we can

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change and we can heal and we can

be connected in, in different ways.

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That's very powerful.

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I've experienced that on my own journey.

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My dad, my dad passed away in

December,:

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that's the grief is always there.

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But I think we were

just talking about this.

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Eric and I were just talking

about this a little while ago.

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Grief instructs us as well.

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Mistakes instruct us.

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So does grief.

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And one of the blessings

through my grief journey.

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Was really a reimagining of fatherhood

for myself and almost allowing some

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of my own stories that I had kind

of hidden from view or hidden from

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earshot, if you will, to come out.

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You know, and when we talk about sharing

stories, I think one of the things

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that isn't often discussed is the

idea of communicating with yourself.

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Right?

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Because sometimes you're not

sharing stories with others.

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You're not, you don't have, maybe you

don't have the community that you,

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you know, so are longing for that.

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You don't have the friendships where

you feel comfortable and vulnerable

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enough to share those stories.

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And so you're, but you are still telling

your stories to yourself, and if you're

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telling, if you're telling yourself a

story that you're not good enough, you're,

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you're a bad communicator, whatever that

negative spin that you put on a personal

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story about yourself, that story then

becomes part of your operating system.

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It becomes how you, like you said,

how you, interact with the person

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that you're relating to, you know,

whether that's your partner, your kids.

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And so if you're.

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Not willing to, in a way, like, almost

get out of your own way, tell yourself a

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different story, rewrite the story, write

a plot twist, I say, to where, like, what

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is, what are really, like, the facts?

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Of the matter versus, you know, what

has maybe been imprinted or inherited

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even from your past that you're hanging

on to and it's holding you back from,

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you know, having a more connected

relationship or more powerful relationship

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with your partner or your kid.

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And so, for me, my big story was.

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I am not a good communicator.

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I am not enough.

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And so I held on to that belief

for a long time and it was hard.

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And I'm still working

through some of that.

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And I think that's the

important thing to realize.

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I'm a coach for men, but that doesn't

mean that I don't have work to do.

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It doesn't mean I'm perfect.

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Progress is not linear and we're all,

Working on our self development journey.

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I love how you point out so

vulnerably, I appreciate you for that.

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You know, you're a psychologist, a men's

coach, a dad, you've been, like you

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said, you've got decades of experience

and yet you're still messing up.

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You're still finding room for growth

and being willing to admit that and

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take accountability and have the grace

to forgive yourself for those times.

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is really a way to approach it.

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It's, it is, you know, in some

ways it's the only way, you know,

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cause otherwise we, we stuff it,

we hold it in and then we explode.

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It makes it worse.

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And, and, you know, my, I was smiling

as you said that in terms of sharing

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that, not only am I, you know, I joke,

it's, it's a certain joke of a guy for

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guys of a certain age, but not only am

I, you know, the presidents, but I'm

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also a client for the hair club for men.

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Right.

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But you know, when I was first

starting journeyman and I was Playing

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around with different marketing

things and hashtags and all of that.

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I was really excited about the hashtag

of hashtag one of the journeymen.

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However, someone pointed out that it

looks when you use hashtag as number

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one of the journeymen, and I was like,

I don't want to say that, but the truth

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is, is that what I have been doing.

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really truly loved about moving into this

coaching space with men as opposed to with

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therapy is with coaching, I'm a guy too.

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I'm not just a therapist.

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All of the guys in my groups

have seen me get emotional.

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They've seen me like come in.

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In fact, you know, we have an open meeting

every Tuesday and It's kind of great.

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It's an open meeting every Tuesday and

one point only two guys showed up and

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they were guys who I happened to be

really close with in the middle of the

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meeting, one of them was like, Jason,

what's up, something's up with you.

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And like, as a therapist, I

wouldn't answer that question.

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I would turn it around.

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I would, you know, but as a coach.

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Not that I made it all about me, but I

was able to be real, I was able to be

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really present to this group of men.

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And I think it deepened their

experience as well and it gives

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permission for us to do that.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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That's awesome.

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I want to talk about your relationship

with your own father and how

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that kind of molded you I don't

know whether it was good or bad.

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Whatever you're comfortable sharing.

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I know, for my own experience, I

learned some things from my dad to do,

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and I also learned some things not to do.

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So if you could share just a couple.

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Things that you've learned from your dad.

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That'd be great.

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Yeah, no, absolutely.

365

:

And I, I love actually talking

about my father because for the

366

:

most part, he's a wonderful man.

367

:

I have a good relationship with him.

368

:

, I, have joked that I had, I had

really wonderful parents growing up.

369

:

I had lots of wonderful

traumas that I can talk about.

370

:

But they fortunately really weren't with

my father or mother, like they did great.

371

:

And so, , my dad before he

retired was a social worker.

372

:

So he was also in sort of this

field he started his career with

373

:

geriatrics and then finished his career

working with elementary school kids.

374

:

And so, , as a.

375

:

teenager, I used to go into work with

him to the Bronx, to elementary schools,

376

:

play with kids all day, and I got to

watch my father playing with other kids.

377

:

And so he is someone who

is, Incredibly sensitive.

378

:

He he's a caring, sensitive man.

379

:

And at the same time, he's a man of a

certain context and generation, right?

380

:

He grew up in the sixties and, I always

sort of joke that for his generation,

381

:

He's exactly what I needed as a kid,

as a sensitive, sort of self aware,

382

:

intelligent, young boy in the 80s.

383

:

I, it was great to have him, because

he also, he grew up in New York City.

384

:

He, he was not naive in any way,

shape, or form, but he was also

385

:

really intentional about a lot

of the ways that he parented me.

386

:

But at the same time, and this is

one of those things, you know, I've

387

:

talked to my kids about, is, while

I, he was, he was very affectionate,

388

:

is, I mean, you know, he's still

alive, so he is very affectionate, and

389

:

always was when I was a kid, and at

the same time I don't remember him

390

:

comfortably saying I love you, very

often, I remember the few times that

391

:

I've seen him cry, You know, and I was

telling this story to my oldest, right?

392

:

Cause he asked me, well, why is

this work so important to me?

393

:

And I said, well, you know,

I tell you, I love you a lot.

394

:

Right.

395

:

And he goes, yeah.

396

:

And I said, well, lots of young

boys and girls who don't hear that

397

:

from their dads, and that's one of

the reasons why I want to do this.

398

:

And he said, well, you

know, what about Poppy?

399

:

My, my dad.

400

:

And I said, I know he loves me

without a doubt, without any

401

:

question in my life, in my mind.

402

:

If I called him right now,

he lives six hours away.

403

:

He'd get in the car and be here.

404

:

You know, and he'd be here in five hours.

405

:

I know that without a doubt.

406

:

But he doesn't, , he doesn't say it,

you know, as an adult, I sometimes say

407

:

it to him just to watch him squirm.

408

:

So it's interesting because he

and I have similar senses of

409

:

humor and very similar values.

410

:

And we have similar interests

in, storytelling and, he's

411

:

written poetry when I was a kid.

412

:

This is actually probably the

best thing that I, that I would

413

:

share is when I was a kid.

414

:

He created this entire universe's

story for me and would write little

415

:

short stories and send them to me

when I was away at sleepaway camp.

416

:

And so I wanted to be a character.

417

:

My name is Jason Scott.

418

:

So we created the character

Skojay, you know, that's one

419

:

of my emails now to this day.

420

:

And Skojay was a young warrior who

wanted to learn magic and wanted

421

:

to be a sort of a mage or a wizard.

422

:

And he found me.

423

:

An old aging mage named Fundar,

my dad's character, who he

424

:

trained under for a long time.

425

:

And so he would write me these short

stories and send them to me when

426

:

I was away at camp and whatnot.

427

:

And then, you know, that stuck with me.

428

:

So as a young man, when I was a young

professional, I would write these

429

:

stories and share these stories and,

and create new stories with Sco J

430

:

adventures and things like that.

431

:

And then my sons were born and I

created two characters for them as the

432

:

two sons of Skojay and his wife Star.

433

:

And so now my two sons hear

Emba and Zephyr's stories.

434

:

And they have all through their childhood.

435

:

And the best sort of piece of that

is my father, he stopped writing

436

:

those for a period and we weren't

necessarily as close for a little while.

437

:

And he used to joke about

adulting got in the way and he

438

:

sort of lost the path, right?

439

:

I wrote a story for my son when he

was first born about how he was, about

440

:

how Emba, there was a prophecy that

he was going to need to go and find

441

:

Fundar because Fundar had disappeared.

442

:

Well, without telling my dad, any of this.

443

:

The night my son was born, my dad

wrote the first story in many, many

444

:

years about how Fundar had disappeared

into another realm where he had

445

:

befriended two spirit beings and asked

them to go to Skojë to be born and

446

:

to help find him and bring him back.

447

:

Wow.

448

:

So this is now a decades old epic of oral

stories that my family has been sharing.

449

:

So, it is something

that is really powerful.

450

:

Definitely, you know, informs

a lot of the work I do.

451

:

Wow.

452

:

What a phenomenal example

of, storytelling to stay

453

:

connected and sometimes to, you

know, to lose that connection.

454

:

But then that story was written

and it's brings it all back.

455

:

Right.

456

:

Absolutely.

457

:

I mean, it's really poignant.

458

:

Yeah, it sure is.

459

:

I want to dive into your

relationship with your wife.

460

:

You said one of the strengths

that you have is your willingness

461

:

to take responsibility and being

engaged in honest conversations

462

:

to create meaningful connections.

463

:

How did you come to develop that skill?

464

:

And , what are you still working

on to keep developing it.

465

:

Oh well, I'll highlight the last

thing you said, which is we are still

466

:

working on it and developing it.

467

:

You know, I think like we said

earlier, it's a lifelong thing.

468

:

Both my wife and I are trained therapists.

469

:

Which is both a pro and a con, you

know and so we both like to process,

470

:

we both talk and yet just like we

were saying earlier about coaching

471

:

and whatnot as therapists, we're also

human and we get triggered and we,

472

:

you know, misbehave or we act out

or whatever language we want to use.

473

:

And so I think it's the first thing

that allowed us to be able to talk

474

:

and communicate and connect was the

explicit understanding that we had.

475

:

And that we said early on in our

relationship is we're building a strong

476

:

foundation and the idea or ideal of

fairytale romantic love is sort of bull.

477

:

And we both accepted that, we both

accepted that it's not like we've met

478

:

the person and it's happily ever after,

we've met the person and we're willing

479

:

to engage in the work until forever

after, you know, and so, I tell a

480

:

lot of the guys I work with saying I

use a lot is the magic is in the muck.

481

:

And so what's hard is remembering

that when you're in the muck.

482

:

But I think that's something

that my wife and I do really well

483

:

like We have had it out, right?

484

:

Like we, like most couples, we can

go at it and usually when there's

485

:

some external stressor that's really

pushing our buttons or, , when I

486

:

make a big mistake or, , one of those

things, but what I I am so grateful

487

:

to her for and to our relationship

is I don't have that sense of anxiety

488

:

or panic when we go at it like that.

489

:

I know I'm confident that

we're going to get through it.

490

:

It may take longer than I want.

491

:

It may be more uncomfortable than I want.

492

:

It may be whatever, but we both

have learned, , I'm a talker.

493

:

She isn't as much, she

needs to think more first.

494

:

Like I, , I, I can just.

495

:

Go like that.

496

:

And so it took me a long time

years, maybe to be able to be

497

:

like, ah, okay, let me rest.

498

:

I'll get, you know what?

499

:

Get back to me.

500

:

Let's talk tonight.

501

:

Let's talk tomorrow.

502

:

Let's talk, , and , to let go of the, some

of the sayings of , never got a bed angry.

503

:

Okay.

504

:

Well, you know, sometimes

you have to, and that's okay.

505

:

But we also have lots of

little little tiny rituals or

506

:

traditions or connection points.

507

:

So , I can say one thing, I usually

go to bed later than she does.

508

:

And so every night when I go

to bed, she's often sleeping.

509

:

And if she's not, you know, the same

thing, but I always kiss her on the

510

:

top of the head, but we get into bed.

511

:

That's what I do every single night.

512

:

And even when we're arguing, even our

biggest arguments, I try to do that.

513

:

I've not done that once or twice

and she'll wake up and be awake.

514

:

You didn't kiss me.

515

:

We're really like, do we need to talk now?

516

:

What's going on?

517

:

, but it's that level of, , you

know, it's hitting the fan.

518

:

Now we are not liking each other.

519

:

We are not doing that, but I'm

going to kiss you on that top

520

:

of the head before I go to bed.

521

:

Before I fall asleep,

that's what I want to do.

522

:

And it's a commitment I've made to myself.

523

:

She has similar things as well.

524

:

, often, again, if I'm downstairs

working or watching something or

525

:

doing, and she's going to bed early

and we're arguing, she will still

526

:

come and give me a kiss goodnight.

527

:

And there are times where I'm

like, why are you giving me a kiss?

528

:

We hate each other.

529

:

And she's like, I'm giving

you a kiss because I love

530

:

you, the work never stops.

531

:

I mean, that's the theme of what we've

talked about, you know, accountability,

532

:

knowing that, , we're going to make

mistakes, knowing those things.

533

:

And

534

:

, I think the commitment to that commitment

to that journey is something that I

535

:

know we can meet, commit to regularly.

536

:

Yeah.

537

:

If there's a guy that's listening to

this, , that may be struggling a lot with

538

:

their communication practice in their

partnership and other than joining your

539

:

journeyman program, which I'm sure it'd

be super helpful, but , what can they

540

:

do today right now , when they stop

listening to this podcast, what would

541

:

be a couple of steps they could take

just to start the journey to improving

542

:

.

That difference between reacting versus thoughtfully responding.

543

:

My favorite topic.

544

:

I just did a topic.

545

:

I talked on that yesterday.

546

:

For, well, actually before I even say

that, I would say, I love that you said

547

:

like, other than just joining I will

add, and this is something that I do feel

548

:

really strongly about join a group, right?

549

:

It doesn't have to be mine.

550

:

You know, I sure I'd love to promote that

or whatever, but the reality is there

551

:

are wonderful men's groups everywhere.

552

:

And I do think, you know this is my

little soapbox, but I've been a therapist.

553

:

I've been a psychologist for over 25 years

and short of some of the extreme clinical

554

:

examples that are going on, you know, in

terms of suicidality, anxiety, depression,

555

:

all of these things short of that.

556

:

Men's groups are the most healing and

curative things that I know of, more than

557

:

therapy, more than, , intensive treatment

or those kind of things, but committing

558

:

to doing something like a men's group , is

for me, one of the things I can say is

559

:

that as a licensed psychologist, I would

much rather see men doing more of that.

560

:

So that's a little sidestep, but

to answer your question, what's the

561

:

first thing they can do is, , I think.

562

:

There, there's two pieces or a

three step process that I would say

563

:

first is clear on what you want.

564

:

Right?

565

:

What are your goals?

566

:

I, in my work, I call them treasures and

we have many of them for many journeys.

567

:

But when it comes to, let's say

using this as an example, let's say

568

:

your relationship with your partner,

get really clear on what you want.

569

:

You know, I want this

to be a lifelong thing.

570

:

I want there to be joy , and

connection understanding that

571

:

we are going to have the muck.

572

:

Like, be really clear on

what the treasured relation,

573

:

part of your relationship is.

574

:

Be really clear on that.

575

:

Write it down.

576

:

And then the next thing is, What are

some of the values that you hold, right?

577

:

This is not even about

connecting with your partner yet.

578

:

It's about you, right?

579

:

, what are, let's say four values that

you hold that if you were following

580

:

them, you would move towards those

treasures and write those down.

581

:

Right.

582

:

I actually use, I have an exercise that

I do with a cold, a values compass.

583

:

Where we put that treasure

in the middle of a compass.

584

:

And then I have those four

values as the four cardinal

585

:

points of the, of your compass.

586

:

And you know, we all have more

than four values and values are

587

:

often very vague and abstract.

588

:

Right.

589

:

I want to save the world.

590

:

I care about the earth.

591

:

I, you know, and those are lovely,

but I actually will push you to push

592

:

guys to say, I want to understand

the value in a concrete way.

593

:

Right.

594

:

If I was watching a home movie of you,

you could say, Hey, me doing that.

595

:

That's that value.

596

:

This is how I express that value.

597

:

And there's a, phrase I use.

598

:

It's the minimum expression of value

or the smallest unit of value, right?

599

:

So just as an example, I have

one of my values is a cozy,

600

:

comforting, welcoming home, right?

601

:

So one of the smallest units of value

there is when after my kids go to

602

:

bed and my wife goes to bed and I

go out in the winter and either chop

603

:

wood or bringing wood into the house.

604

:

That is an expression of my value, right?

605

:

It's a concrete.

606

:

It can also be when I clean the

bathroom, that is an expression of

607

:

that value because it's comforting,

you know, I don't want a guest to

608

:

come in and have a big, busy bathroom.

609

:

Having a clean bathroom is

not one of my core values.

610

:

So I needed to, , connect

it to something bigger.

611

:

Otherwise it would have been a mess, . And

so , the first part is understand your

612

:

treasure for a particular thing, whether

it's the relationship or whatnot, the

613

:

second thing would be, what are your four

concrete values for the values compass.

614

:

Right.

615

:

And then the third is sort of a

take on the compass speech with his

616

:

Compass only works if you take it

out of your pocket and look at it.

617

:

So post them somewhere, , when I

work with guys initially with this,

618

:

with this exercise, I literally

don't, I don't tell them to put

619

:

it on the front of their phone.

620

:

I tell them to take a sticky note and

put it on the front of their phone.

621

:

So that way, every time they pick

out their phone, they see that they

622

:

literally have to move it or put it

on the fridge, , , I've had guys who

623

:

posted on their bathroom mirror, , let

that be something that can direct you.

624

:

And so for me, it's like once we have

those in our sort of field of vision

625

:

and field of awareness, your values

literally become the directions on

626

:

your path and the treasure for your

journey because you know what to do if

627

:

you have your values , in front of you.

628

:

And when you're living your

values, it feels great.

629

:

I hope that , , all the men, dads that

are listening, , really take this to

630

:

heart , because I think that's super

powerful what you talk about there.

631

:

Oftentimes, you could find yourself

writing something down, defining

632

:

it, and then you just put it away.

633

:

Right.

634

:

But there is a lot of power in having

that visual in front of you, whether

635

:

it's on a mirror, on your fridge, on

your desk at work, your desk at home,

636

:

somewhere where you spend some time

where you're actually going to see it.

637

:

And.

638

:

I would even go a step further and

say, cause I, you know, you put a

639

:

sticky note on the phone, right?

640

:

But it's, it's a lot, it's, it's,

it's just as easy to take that off.

641

:

Don't look at it.

642

:

So you got to make sure that you

actually spend two to three minutes

643

:

actually looking at that piece of

paper or that note or that whatever

644

:

it ends up being in physical form and

just having some time in your day.

645

:

To.

646

:

Intentionally think, because I think

where, where I've gotten lost in

647

:

the past is when I rush and rush

and rush, which we all do, right?

648

:

Busy day, busy dad, busy working,

. And we value this busyness

649

:

as if it's a badge of honor.

650

:

And you see me post on LinkedIn, Jason,

about a walk in the woods is productive.

651

:

You know, we look at this word productive.

652

:

And often we associate it with

being busy, doing busy work at

653

:

our busy jobs in our busy life.

654

:

Whereas I have redefined the word

for myself, and it's been really

655

:

helpful to say , Intentional thinking

time is productive, very much so,

656

:

because it allows you to then make

sense of where you're at with, how

657

:

you want to show up for the day.

658

:

Or if you have made a mistake, it

allows you that time to reflect on

659

:

that mistake and say, you know what?

660

:

Yeah, I made a mistake and that's okay.

661

:

What can I do better tomorrow?

662

:

Right?

663

:

So we, we often just.

664

:

Kind of avoid those uncomfortable

things because they're uncomfortable.

665

:

But if we can take some time to really

stop and have some pause in our day

666

:

, and just intentionally think and get

uncomfortable for a second, and you can

667

:

share that in a community of other men,

or you can , just do it for yourself.

668

:

Either way, it's powerful , to stop.

669

:

In your day and take a

moment for yourself to think.

670

:

That's something that I've started doing

and it's been life changing for me.

671

:

I want to talk about one of your

weaknesses, Jason, if you don't mind.

672

:

We all have them, but you had

mentioned that you struggle with

673

:

talking about the way your household

is managed, including finances.

674

:

And as men, I know for me, you

know, we grew up with models.

675

:

I grew up with models there.

676

:

It was very traditional.

677

:

So it was very much an inequitable

split of household duties where,

678

:

and my dad, , he was a great

dad, great man had his own issues.

679

:

He would do more of the manly

things, mow the lawn, , shovel

680

:

the snow, take care of the cars.

681

:

Open the pool, those sorts of

things, whereas my mom would

682

:

do more of the cooking and the

cleaning and the household chores.

683

:

And obviously nowadays we talk

about mental load with, fair

684

:

play and, you know, thanks to E.

685

:

Brodsky, we've got a lot of great

language around how to approach,

686

:

, , this now most often a dual income

household where both parents are

687

:

working at somehow that tradition of.

688

:

Having mom take care of a

lot of that mental load has

689

:

still kind of followed suit.

690

:

Even though things have changed

drastically since our parents were

691

:

kids and their parents were kids.

692

:

so go into that, , whatever

you want to talk about.

693

:

No, fair play has been inspiring for me.

694

:

I, you know, I, I've really enjoyed it.

695

:

And I, I knew when I answered that

question, , you'd pick up on it, right.

696

:

You know, it's, it's an interesting thing

because In many ways, my relationship,

697

:

my family relationships have evolved

into something that looks a little more

698

:

traditional in the gender role things.

699

:

You know, when my kids were young

I had more of a sense of my career.

700

:

And so we chose intentionally for me

to be, , in the office and for , my

701

:

wife to be a stay at home mom.

702

:

, cause it made more sense

financially for us.

703

:

And we used to joke because we were like,

how did we turn out having two typical

704

:

traditional gender roles in our family?

705

:

And yet, The difference for us was

it was all very intentional and it

706

:

was all very discussed and it was

all, , we, like we made those choices.

707

:

So for example, one choice that we

made cause she's also a narrative

708

:

therapy therapist and narrative places

a lot of importance on language.

709

:

Right.

710

:

And so we very specifically to the

point where we corrected other people

711

:

never said, , pop is going off to work

because what does that say about mama?

712

:

Right.

713

:

We would say pop is going to the office.

714

:

, work is work, you know, mama

was working while I was working.

715

:

And, , so we were very specific

about the language that we used to

716

:

the point where, yeah, when my kids

were three and four, they were like

717

:

Papa's at the office, mom was working

at home or, , we're aware of that.

718

:

But now that my kids are older

and we're both, , doing things at

719

:

home and at work, , all sorts of

things like that again, , it is

720

:

certainly, , , we're not perfect with it.

721

:

We still, , , that is a big part of

some of our arguments where, , she has

722

:

a stronger mental load around , the good

example would be emails from school, , I

723

:

don't pay as much attention to them,

, , and I'm not as aware of things like that.

724

:

We had a little, spat this morning

around, , I took my kid to the

725

:

dentist and she was like, make

sure to find out about this detail.

726

:

And I was like, I got it.

727

:

I got it.

728

:

And then I was like, what

details shoot, you know?

729

:

So, so those kinds of things, , I think.

730

:

Right now, she is working less hours,

so she does take on more of the home

731

:

chores, and when we're doing well, it's

more communicated, it's more intentional,

732

:

when we're not doing well, it is

because we're stressed, and either one

733

:

or both of us feels like it's unfair,

and we lash out, and we aren't as

734

:

Kind , about it as we'd like to be.

735

:

I still do, like I said, I chopped

the wood more often than not.

736

:

More often than not, I'm the one

mowing the lawn this past summer

737

:

when I was working a lot, she

started to, and I made the joke of

738

:

like, Oh, I'm being all emasculated.

739

:

You're mowing the lawn, you know?

740

:

And so , but I also, I cook 95 percent

of the time, ? And , so I think what,

741

:

, , and part of what you mentioned also

was money is that money is a stressor

742

:

for both of us and neither of us have

the best sort of mindset around that.

743

:

And so, , there is a stress when it

comes to tax time, when it comes to

744

:

bills, when it comes to this and, , my,

unfortunately the, what I want to think,

745

:

the issues that I'm working on is that

when I'm stressed, I tend to avoid, right.

746

:

And so avoiding things like

bills is not a good thing.

747

:

So then she took it on.

748

:

Well, when she's not doing well or she's

stressed, there's a lot of pushback about

749

:

why she had to take it on and I, I didn't.

750

:

And so yeah, it's for me one of the

weaknesses or stretches, as I like

751

:

to say it, is stepping up to the

things that are uncomfortable for me.

752

:

Especially at home and in our

relationship and , doing them anyway,

753

:

or at least talking, right, like, at

least saying, like, I really, I just,

754

:

I can't or I don't want to do this.

755

:

Is that okay with you?

756

:

Or can we, can we do it together?

757

:

, you know, those kinds of things.

758

:

And, , I certainly do that.

759

:

I think I do that.

760

:

Well, sometimes, but, , not enough.

761

:

And , that becomes, I think the core

of, of some of arguments when I don't

762

:

communicate it well enough that either

am I'm anxious or I'm not feeling good

763

:

about something or I think it's going to

make her anxious, , those kinds of things.

764

:

Those are, that's, that's always

what I'm working on as a, as a

765

:

partner and a father at home.

766

:

. Yeah.

767

:

. , all of that, what you said

resonated with me a lot.

768

:

I'm sure, I'm sure it resonates with

a lot of the dads listening to Eric.

769

:

I know you've got , some similar

stories around household management

770

:

and how that all kind of works for you.

771

:

And I don't know anything

you wanted to ask.

772

:

Yeah, you actually said a couple of

things that kind of blew me away.

773

:

So I have two questions for you.

774

:

I've never sat down and

wrote down my values.

775

:

And as you're talking, I was like,

what are my, what are my values?

776

:

And I, I don't know.

777

:

So I'm going to work on that.

778

:

So why four?

779

:

Why four values?

780

:

Why not three or five or?

781

:

Couple reasons.

782

:

One is well, before I get to that,

I'll say like, if you go to sit

783

:

down and write them, it is hard.

784

:

You know, I've looked in all different

types of therapeutic modalities and

785

:

there's a couple that hit it, but a

lot of them don't actually hit it well.

786

:

So the one tip that I would say, if

you do want to sit down and write

787

:

them is, that's why I talk about

get your treasure, your goal first.

788

:

And then say, what do I care

about or believe that would

789

:

push me towards that, right?

790

:

So you're looking for specificity,

because if we just say, what are my

791

:

values, a lot of the values exercises,

they give you, , a piece of paper

792

:

with 100 different values words.

793

:

And you have to say what resonates

and, , it's, it's okay, but I want

794

:

people to get real specific, right?

795

:

If I value a cozy, comfortable home, or

if that's a goal, a cozy, comfortable

796

:

home, Then , what do I care about?

797

:

What do I believe that

will help me build that?

798

:

Right?

799

:

And that would be, , maybe a value

around that is daily maintenance

800

:

of, , bathrooms, , daily household

maintenance might be a value of mine

801

:

that I didn't realize because my

goal is to have a warm inviting home.

802

:

And it, and no one would, might think of

daily household maintenance as a value.

803

:

But when we think about it in

this way, when we get specific in

804

:

this way, then you can hold that.

805

:

And, and when I see, and I named that

as a value and at night when, , I

806

:

want to kind of like, Cross off and

just do nothing or relax, you know, or

807

:

not relax, but like just dissociate.

808

:

Maybe I have to remember like,

oh, wait, I have that values

809

:

or anything else I need to do.

810

:

And actually, by doing

that, I feel more relaxed.

811

:

Right.

812

:

So I follow, what I'm doing.

813

:

So why.

814

:

There's a lot of arbitrary things.

815

:

I love numbers.

816

:

And I think that, , I get a

little funny with numbers.

817

:

Four is the, was the four

parts of of the compass.

818

:

So it fit really well with

the metaphor, to be honest.

819

:

And I also like when you have

four, , you can act on one or two or

820

:

three or four, like five felt like

too many, three felt like not enough.

821

:

And the other piece about it is.

822

:

It isn't, , , going back with

the compass metaphor, you

823

:

know, there is North Northwest.

824

:

There is, you know, there are

many different points on the

825

:

compass, similar to our values.

826

:

I'm not saying to pick four as

in those are your four values.

827

:

They are your four values for this

particular goal and this particular

828

:

journey and this particular treasure for

the next challenge you're working on.

829

:

You might have four brand new ones.

830

:

And that's, , we are evolving and

we're all, , we're building new

831

:

stories about who we are all the time.

832

:

So we can, we might have core values

that are just very , more static , or

833

:

long lasting, but I want us to

play with sort of the, Oh, I want

834

:

to have a warming, inviting house.

835

:

What are the things that I

believe in that will support that?

836

:

And, , if I have 10 of them, it

almost feels like too hard, right?

837

:

I don't want to give someone

10 directions to follow.

838

:

I want to give them four.

839

:

It's fascinating.

840

:

That's awesome.

841

:

Thanks.

842

:

The other question I had for you

was this idea of a dominating story.

843

:

Yeah.

844

:

So I'm an actor.

845

:

And so what I do, I, I narrate

audio books and, and I'm a narrator.

846

:

Cool.

847

:

And for years I couldn't

control my breath.

848

:

I felt like I was always hyperventilating.

849

:

So I took some breathing classes.

850

:

And one was like it was like a

four week it was during COVID.

851

:

It was four weeks every

weekend, twice, twice two times.

852

:

Yeah.

853

:

Thanks.

854

:

At the end of it, we just had to say, Hey,

what did you learn throughout the course?

855

:

And I couldn't talk because

I started tearing up.

856

:

And I think I learned, hold on, it's just

a bunch of 20 year olds staring at me.

857

:

And you know, I'm 45 at

this time, 44 at the time.

858

:

And I'm like, Oh, I am enough.

859

:

And I really jarred something loose with

all the breathing and relaxing and then

860

:

I had to go take a long shower and just

kind of look inside and be like, dude,

861

:

I'm proud of you, dude, I'm proud of you.

862

:

I just, you know, I just teared up a lot

in the shower and kind of handled that.

863

:

But then, , as you're talking, I

should probably still look into that.

864

:

What is that dominating story?

865

:

So how does the average person find what

are these dominating limiting stories?

866

:

I mean, that's, that's a huge question,

and what I sort of say in the beginning

867

:

is , it is challenging to do yourself.

868

:

It's challenging to do alone.

869

:

, a lot of these practices are built

in the sort of social sphere, right?

870

:

Stories are social.

871

:

Right.

872

:

And so, , even your experience there,

there was an interaction, right?

873

:

You weren't just, , like , it hit

when you took a shower and we're

874

:

like, Oh my gosh, but it was with this

interaction and experiential, moment.

875

:

And so doing it oneself.

876

:

, I think there's a challenge,

but , , , to answer your question,

877

:

I think it's noticing patterns.

878

:

, if you're really intentional, similar

to Fred what you're saying about daily

879

:

intention and reflection, , there's

that sense of like, I want to see, I

880

:

want to know what are the patterns,

, where are the obstacles and challenges

881

:

that I see and how are they related?

882

:

, oftentimes we can learn about these

dominating stories through, through

883

:

reading the, the difficulties , through

the like, Oh,, I tend to get stuck here.

884

:

Oftentimes that's when a partner

or a friend or a collaborative or

885

:

a colleague points out like, Hey,

you keep messing this part up.

886

:

Or, Hey, you know, perhaps not as

kindly as that, but, , when we notice

887

:

challenges and then we put that into

a pattern, we're creating a plot line.

888

:

And that plot line can help

us understand the story.

889

:

And then , the next piece often is,

, deconstructing how that plot line both

890

:

is impacted and impactful for you, but

also looking at the greater, a lot, a

891

:

big piece of, of narrative work , is

looking at , the greater cultural.

892

:

Narratives, there's our own personal

and then there's the greater cultural.

893

:

So, , the story of I'm not enough

or, or whatnot, or shame or, or

894

:

any of these things that we're

talking about, there is some serious

895

:

connection to what our cultural stories

about masculinity and manhood are.

896

:

Right?

897

:

And then we can look at what was it

like in our child, our family of origin?

898

:

And what were those stories?

899

:

Were they actively questioned back then?

900

:

Likely not, often not, right?

901

:

And so , the work of identifying a

dominating story is also about identifying

902

:

kind of what are stories like, let's

look at movies, let's look at books,

903

:

let's look at , how do we resonate?

904

:

With the, the story, , how I feel about

myself and what I see myself doing , in

905

:

challenges, obstacles, you know, problems,

and what, how has that reflected in

906

:

the world and has it reflected back?

907

:

Right?

908

:

Like an easy one is, , when we come up

against something really hard, right?

909

:

The cultural story is, well,

as men, we just work to fix it

910

:

and we're good enough to do it.

911

:

We'll pull ourselves up by the

bootstraps and make it happen.

912

:

And, , all of the, , there are stories.

913

:

And so if these cultural stories

are so embedded in what we do, It

914

:

takes an active of real courage and

activism to say, well, no, that's not

915

:

kind of, that don't feel good to me.

916

:

It's not what I want.

917

:

And I've been doing that.

918

:

It's not really gotten

me where I want to go.

919

:

So how do I do it differently?

920

:

And what do I do different?

921

:

And that is the step of like understanding

and uncovering more of the less dominant

922

:

or the oppressed stories in our lives.

923

:

Because we all have, I, we all have

examples in our lives where we've

924

:

asked for help but they get pushed

away because they're not accepted.

925

:

So that's the long answer to a

hard question, or the short answer

926

:

to a long, you know, whatever.

927

:

But I also do think, and this is

where I said before about like

928

:

men in group, is this kind of work

is really best done not alone.

929

:

, whether it's with a therapist,

a coach, a group of guys.

930

:

But when people can.

931

:

Observe and share with you their

observations of your stories, their

932

:

stories, and how they interact, we

grow a lot more, more potently..

933

:

It actually leads me to my next question,

, , this idea of masculinity it's a pretty

934

:

hot topic if you're paying attention

there's two very different views.

935

:

There's the traditional view of

masculinity, and then there's the, the

936

:

modern, , the, I would say the, the view

of masculinity that I guess I'm trying

937

:

to foster with the people that I work

with, the people that, , resonate with me.

938

:

And there's everything in between.

939

:

It's a spectrum and I'm a

big fan of thinking of it.

940

:

As a spectrum, because , it doesn't

need to be a right answer, to me, the

941

:

definition of any word really what, how

it serves you best, I guess, is kind of

942

:

how I'll say that, like, so in the work

you do, Jason, with the men you work with,

943

:

, how deep do you go , on masculinity

the traditional, , version that we know

944

:

so well versus , this new, hopefully

progress towards something better.

945

:

It's a big part.

946

:

, I, in my work in the, in the journeyman

programs, it is specifically for

947

:

fathers, but I joke about it.

948

:

I'm like, we're not doing parenting

work and we are doing parenting work.

949

:

We're doing men's work.

950

:

But the idea is that.

951

:

As you become more centered and

more grounded as a man, when

952

:

you become a better man, you're

going to be a better dad, period.

953

:

And so we absolutely talk a lot

about masculinity and , where

954

:

it's been, where it's coming from.

955

:

The idea, , it's funny because you

say traditional masculinity, which

956

:

I get, , I think that's a language

that we all use, but for me, I

957

:

like to put words upside down.

958

:

And really, to me, traditional masculinity

is the version of this new masculinity

959

:

that we're all working towards.

960

:

And then it was somehow, and there's

a much bigger conversation, but it

961

:

was, , it evolved into , this sort of.

962

:

Tough domination based, , cultural

thing , and that isn't traditional

963

:

that isn't, , helpful or healthful.

964

:

Right.

965

:

And so, but at the same time a big

piece that my guys have all heard me

966

:

say is, there's no such thing as toxic

masculinity, there are toxic behaviors.

967

:

But masculinity in and of itself, right?

968

:

Like I'm, I'm a strong man.

969

:

I go and, , I go fishing.

970

:

I, I chopped wood.

971

:

I, , I, I do those things.

972

:

I, , before I had to be gluten

free, I like beer, , like I.

973

:

You started snowboarding in your forties.

974

:

I started snowboarding, , yeah,

I started snowboarding in 48 when

975

:

I was 48 and, and it was great.

976

:

It's great.

977

:

You know, I go camping, I'm an outdoors

guy, like all of those things, but.

978

:

What's toxic is when there's a, , a

forced acceptance , and forced

979

:

behaviors , in those realms, right?

980

:

Like when you're forced, when men

are basically forced implicitly or

981

:

even explicitly at times to be manly.

982

:

And that there are significant

consequences when we're not, right?

983

:

There, there's that term, I'm sure you

know, it's like man box culture, right?

984

:

What's toxic is when we're

forced into the man box, not

985

:

when we choose to be in there.

986

:

But, , it, and being in, well, being

in the man box in and of itself is

987

:

a collection of toxic behaviors.

988

:

But, , the idea of when we choose

to be masculine, that's not toxic.

989

:

Right.

990

:

So it's helping, , we're pretty explicit

in the journeyman work that, , we

991

:

are looking to, as men, build and

uncover narratives for masculinity and

992

:

fatherhood that involve and surround

sort of a whole experience, right?

993

:

Men and boys, just like every other

human on the planet, need, like

994

:

water and food and, and sleep,

they need emotional connection.

995

:

They need strong, loving, emotional

relationships and expression.

996

:

And without that, just like without

water and food, we have ill health.

997

:

And so we have a culture that is

systemically and systematically

998

:

bullying men out of those experiences.

999

:

And then.

:

00:54:08,515 --> 00:54:13,015

We talk about there's a mental health

crisis, , and men have higher levels

:

00:54:13,025 --> 00:54:17,425

of diabetes, of high blood pressure,

of heart disease, of suicide, of, , all

:

00:54:17,425 --> 00:54:20,855

of the drug use, all of the violence

and aggression, all of these things.

:

00:54:21,165 --> 00:54:24,625

And we say there's a mental health

crisis, which the traditional mental

:

00:54:24,625 --> 00:54:27,390

health world, this is a little a little

soapbox that I'm on, I'll come off in

:

00:54:27,390 --> 00:54:32,090

just a second, but , , the traditional

model of mental health is a medical one.

:

00:54:32,460 --> 00:54:34,920

So what we're saying when we say

there's a mental health crisis is

:

00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:36,025

there's something wrong with you.

:

00:54:36,585 --> 00:54:38,395

Men, there's something

wrong with you boys.

:

00:54:38,615 --> 00:54:39,705

There's something wrong with you.

:

00:54:40,695 --> 00:54:44,875

And yet what we're not looking at

is there's something wrong with the

:

00:54:44,875 --> 00:54:50,545

way as a culture, we share stories

that bully men and boys out of these

:

00:54:50,545 --> 00:54:52,985

close, loving, emotional connections.

:

00:54:53,755 --> 00:54:59,695

And so we're pushed away from a, what I

would call traditional masculinity of, of

:

00:54:59,705 --> 00:55:05,565

loving connection and caring, nurturing,

and providing in a different way.

:

00:55:06,245 --> 00:55:09,755

And so in a long way to answer

your question is that , it's pretty

:

00:55:09,755 --> 00:55:11,115

explicit in the work that we do.

:

00:55:11,405 --> 00:55:12,745

And yet I don't force it.

:

00:55:12,745 --> 00:55:17,185

It's not, , I just jumped on the soapbox

here, but, , I often will, , Similar to

:

00:55:17,185 --> 00:55:21,285

what you mentioned, Eric, about how do you

identify dominant stories when guys are

:

00:55:21,285 --> 00:55:25,955

talking about their stuff will also say,

well, how is that connected to cultural

:

00:55:25,955 --> 00:55:30,755

stories about masculinity in gender roles

and, , help us understand how that goes.

:

00:55:30,785 --> 00:55:35,635

And so the conversation is foundational,

but it's not always like it's not

:

00:55:35,635 --> 00:55:39,355

the topic of what we're doing today,

, although sometimes I guess it is.

:

00:55:39,775 --> 00:55:40,125

Yeah.

:

00:55:40,605 --> 00:55:45,245

Yeah, well, , it's really an interesting

topic for me raising a son and I know

:

00:55:45,245 --> 00:55:47,815

you have two sons I see my son's eight.

:

00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:54,620

And it's amazing to, to notice the

things that he's hearing and seeing

:

00:55:54,630 --> 00:55:58,120

at school or out in the world or

from, , possibly from social media.

:

00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:01,010

We don't allow him to have a lot

of that, but maybe YouTube here

:

00:56:01,010 --> 00:56:05,540

and there, YouTube video, whatever,

or a movie or a TV show that's on.

:

00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:08,290

He'll get these ideas.

:

00:56:08,625 --> 00:56:14,585

That are counter to what I'm trying

to teach him such that one that comes

:

00:56:14,585 --> 00:56:20,335

to mind is the idea that like boys

can't be friends with girls that

:

00:56:20,405 --> 00:56:25,875

it's like, \, that predominant story

that's been told where it's like, you

:

00:56:25,875 --> 00:56:30,390

can't have a relationship with women

if it's like, If it's not sexual,

:

00:56:30,730 --> 00:56:31,950

then you can't be friends with them.

:

00:56:32,150 --> 00:56:37,340

And it's so, like, counter to

the truth with humans in general.

:

00:56:37,340 --> 00:56:38,870

It's like, we just want to be connected.

:

00:56:39,140 --> 00:56:40,740

And it's not always about that.

:

00:56:41,030 --> 00:56:44,160

Yes, there are men out there

that sexualize women, of course.

:

00:56:44,590 --> 00:56:46,070

And that's all, that's all they do.

:

00:56:46,140 --> 00:56:51,510

But what I'm talking about is having truly

a relationship with the opposite sex.

:

00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:52,560

, that's a friendship.

:

00:56:53,650 --> 00:57:00,910

Yeah, productive for both people outside

of, of the sexual and as young as eight,

:

00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:04,420

they're, they're learning like, oh, you

know, girls have cooties or whatever,

:

00:57:04,420 --> 00:57:07,320

you know, the silly things that you

hear, but it, but it does create these,

:

00:57:07,540 --> 00:57:10,940

these storylines that eventually end

up being more damaging than just like

:

00:57:10,940 --> 00:57:12,500

the silly thing when they're kids.

:

00:57:13,050 --> 00:57:16,180

And so I don't, I wonder if there's

anything you can remember from raising

:

00:57:16,180 --> 00:57:21,410

your two boys that you kind of had to

navigate them through to teach them about.

:

00:57:22,685 --> 00:57:25,175

Now, I'll go with your term,

the traditional masculinity

:

00:57:25,915 --> 00:57:28,355

that we want so badly to foster.

:

00:57:29,075 --> 00:57:31,145

You know, it's, it's a great question.

:

00:57:31,155 --> 00:57:33,955

I have been, you know, by.

:

00:57:34,260 --> 00:57:38,390

But intentionally and , by luck or

grace or whatever, we've been really

:

00:57:38,390 --> 00:57:41,390

fortunate, you know, we live in a

rural area here, my kids go to a very

:

00:57:41,390 --> 00:57:45,070

small school that is very sort of

conscientious around those things.

:

00:57:45,070 --> 00:57:50,420

And we have had , and I'm, and they are

my, me, myself and my boys are surrounded

:

00:57:50,420 --> 00:57:53,030

by, , incredibly powerful, strong.

:

00:57:54,460 --> 00:57:56,510

Women, both children and adults.

:

00:57:56,910 --> 00:58:02,980

And so, , for us, , I think it's

been maybe easier or, or more, it's

:

00:58:02,980 --> 00:58:07,940

almost been explicit from birth to

the point where it's hard to think of

:

00:58:07,940 --> 00:58:11,440

a particular example, , cause we talk

about this stuff all the time and I, in

:

00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:16,690

my household and they talk about their

female friends, , in the same way that

:

00:58:16,690 --> 00:58:20,330

they talk about their male friends and,

and they have, , for their whole lives.

:

00:58:20,410 --> 00:58:21,710

So I feel really.

:

00:58:22,925 --> 00:58:27,415

Grateful to that, , a, for whatever

I've done, but also whoever my kids

:

00:58:27,415 --> 00:58:31,855

came out as, , and our community, , we

really have done something I'm

:

00:58:31,855 --> 00:58:33,545

proud of, but you are right.

:

00:58:33,625 --> 00:58:35,825

And in that, , there's all of this.

:

00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:40,510

Experience research, whatever that

that boys are pushed away from

:

00:58:40,510 --> 00:58:42,270

that, I, I, I have watched them.

:

00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:48,340

I have loved watching, , my, my older

son who's 16 has friends, female

:

00:58:48,340 --> 00:58:51,660

friends from kindergarten that he

still loves to spend time with.

:

00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:53,530

And as he's sort of.

:

00:58:54,175 --> 00:58:58,635

, becoming post pubescent or

whatever, , he's got interest , , in

:

00:58:58,635 --> 00:59:02,335

some people, but they're also old

friends that he is just there.

:

00:59:02,375 --> 00:59:08,725

He'll say they're like sisters to me,

, and, and he is someone who I watch being

:

00:59:08,725 --> 00:59:11,065

really comfortable and intentional with.

:

00:59:11,465 --> 00:59:13,525

The people whom he, he spends times with.

:

00:59:13,905 --> 00:59:17,255

One quick plug around this, because I

think it's a really important topic and

:

00:59:17,255 --> 00:59:20,805

you probably know it, but just in case

in terms of your listeners, but there's

:

00:59:20,805 --> 00:59:26,015

an amazing, powerful book that came

out called Deep Secrets by Naobi Wei.

:

00:59:26,570 --> 00:59:29,650

that I think anyone who's interested

in this topic should look into

:

00:59:29,650 --> 00:59:34,340

because she's done 20 years worth

of research into boys friendships

:

00:59:34,340 --> 00:59:38,330

and relationships and how it's been

impacted by our social cultural stories.

:

00:59:38,330 --> 00:59:40,700

And, , it is, it's heart wrenching.

:

00:59:40,710 --> 00:59:42,060

, I'm almost done with it now.

:

00:59:42,060 --> 00:59:45,430

And there are times when I'm reading

it and it's just, it's really,

:

00:59:45,430 --> 00:59:50,575

it's heartbreaking to see because

I think you and I or the three of

:

00:59:50,575 --> 00:59:53,375

us talking, we could be nodding our

heads, be like, yeah, I remember this.

:

00:59:53,595 --> 00:59:54,795

And that's anecdotal.

:

00:59:55,125 --> 00:59:58,565

She's done research , with many,

many, many, many boys and systems.

:

00:59:58,615 --> 01:00:04,945

And, , it, it validates this sense that

like we have systemically pushed boys away

:

01:00:04,945 --> 01:00:06,965

from relationships and close friendships.

:

01:00:06,965 --> 01:00:09,875

There's a story she tells

that, , someone is young.

:

01:00:09,875 --> 01:00:12,405

I forget the exact number,

but, but young, , like five.

:

01:00:13,195 --> 01:00:16,375

Said something to the researcher,

like, , yeah, I'm friends with the

:

01:00:16,375 --> 01:00:17,625

girls, but don't tell the boys.

:

01:00:17,625 --> 01:00:18,735

Cause they'll kick me out of the club.

:

01:00:20,825 --> 01:00:21,195

Right.

:

01:00:21,215 --> 01:00:25,865

I mean, for a five year old to

say that, , I, I'm, I'm, I may be

:

01:00:25,865 --> 01:00:28,375

off on some of the details, but

it was something that poignant.

:

01:00:28,875 --> 01:00:29,205

Yeah.

:

01:00:29,875 --> 01:00:33,195

We could probably talk for a

lot longer but we got to wrap.

:

01:00:33,425 --> 01:00:33,855

I've got.

:

01:00:34,210 --> 01:00:37,130

I've got to pick up my son from school

and a little bit here, but I want to

:

01:00:37,140 --> 01:00:41,690

ask a couple more questions before we go

versus what's the best way for people to

:

01:00:41,690 --> 01:00:44,110

find you to find out about your program.

:

01:00:44,110 --> 01:00:46,560

I know I'm going to put some of that

information in the liner notes of the

:

01:00:46,560 --> 01:00:49,820

show, but if you could tell people

that are listening, where to find you.

:

01:00:50,900 --> 01:00:51,350

Sure.

:

01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:56,670

I mean, I think the easiest would be my

website, which is JourneyMenFoundation.

:

01:00:56,690 --> 01:00:57,040

com.

:

01:00:57,910 --> 01:00:59,820

I'm in the middle of updating a

little bit, but that's the best

:

01:00:59,820 --> 01:01:01,090

way to sort of get in contact.

:

01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:04,170

As of right now, the

organization is mostly just me.

:

01:01:04,170 --> 01:01:06,370

So Jason at NourishedConnections.

:

01:01:07,410 --> 01:01:09,040

com is the best way.

:

01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:10,570

You'll get a direct answer from me.

:

01:01:10,570 --> 01:01:16,085

I, I really, , rather than always

in this, like, Join, join, join.

:

01:01:16,755 --> 01:01:19,155

I just like connecting with other

guys who are interested in this work.

:

01:01:19,155 --> 01:01:21,645

So, , if anybody's interested or

has questions, certainly send me an

:

01:01:21,645 --> 01:01:23,015

email, you'll get a personal response.

:

01:01:23,405 --> 01:01:26,455

And then for the show nates, I w I

would say I'm, I'm pretty active on

:

01:01:26,455 --> 01:01:28,765

LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook.

:

01:01:28,925 --> 01:01:31,325

, those are the places where, , I

sort of live the most.

:

01:01:31,905 --> 01:01:32,335

Awesome.

:

01:01:32,935 --> 01:01:35,635

Last question is for, I

:

01:01:35,785 --> 01:01:38,825

I'm going to actually turn this

one over to Eric for a question.

:

01:01:39,575 --> 01:01:41,435

Let him end this, this episode.

:

01:01:42,575 --> 01:01:42,885

Awesome.

:

01:01:44,165 --> 01:01:46,075

Not to put you on the

spot, Eric, but you're on.

:

01:01:46,255 --> 01:01:46,665

Nah, it's fine.

:

01:01:47,195 --> 01:01:50,545

Yeah, there's, there's something you

said at the very beginning when you

:

01:01:50,545 --> 01:01:54,315

talked about playfulness, bringing

playfulness into the, as a father.

:

01:01:54,585 --> 01:01:57,855

And that was one of the very first

goals when they handed me my daughter

:

01:01:57,855 --> 01:02:01,465

for the first time was I just want to

teach her that life, at least these

:

01:02:01,475 --> 01:02:03,945

first like 10 years, life is fun.

:

01:02:04,145 --> 01:02:05,125

You are awesome.

:

01:02:05,615 --> 01:02:06,385

You are loved.

:

01:02:06,405 --> 01:02:08,815

That was my whole goal

for the first 10 years.

:

01:02:09,115 --> 01:02:10,715

And so like we joke around a lot.

:

01:02:12,025 --> 01:02:15,715

And so like this idea of playfulness

how do you, what are some of the

:

01:02:15,725 --> 01:02:19,125

ways you can instill playfulness

into into being a father?

:

01:02:19,815 --> 01:02:23,495

I'll answer that with the request that

at some point we make this a bigger

:

01:02:23,515 --> 01:02:27,475

part of conversation because it is

connected to so many different things.

:

01:02:27,495 --> 01:02:30,545

The, the trickster archetype,

the, you know, dad jokes,

:

01:02:30,695 --> 01:02:31,965

there's a lot to this one.

:

01:02:32,525 --> 01:02:37,455

But because of time, what I would say is,

Part of it is remember what's fun for you.

:

01:02:38,215 --> 01:02:43,855

And if the truth of matter is, is that

a lot of men have grown up not being

:

01:02:43,855 --> 01:02:48,655

able to have fun or being fun, , fun

being, , drinking or, or, , like

:

01:02:48,665 --> 01:02:52,875

inappropriate fun or whatever it is,

obviously you're not going to share that

:

01:02:52,875 --> 01:02:55,715

with your daughter, , so exploring it.

:

01:02:57,130 --> 01:02:58,080

on your own, right?

:

01:02:58,090 --> 01:02:59,830

Like, what are the things

that are fun for you?

:

01:02:59,840 --> 01:03:02,880

What are the, you know, like,

I had a a friend of mine who

:

01:03:03,220 --> 01:03:04,780

had never played a board game.

:

01:03:06,010 --> 01:03:08,460

And then, , we invited him to

our house for a board game night.

:

01:03:08,470 --> 01:03:10,290

And he was like, Oh my gosh, I love this.

:

01:03:10,780 --> 01:03:14,650

And now his closet is full because

he was like, he'll buy a game , and

:

01:03:14,650 --> 01:03:18,160

really like he'll play it himself for

a few times just to like, get into it.

:

01:03:18,490 --> 01:03:25,880

And so it's this idea of , , how

can you as a father Return to sort

:

01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:29,860

of that childlike fancy, , what are

the things that you liked as a kid?

:

01:03:29,870 --> 01:03:34,510

What are the things that were

whimsical or , enjoyable and also

:

01:03:34,510 --> 01:03:37,130

remembering you're doing with your

kids, ? So like, I love fishing.

:

01:03:38,250 --> 01:03:40,110

My kids will now remind me.

:

01:03:40,270 --> 01:03:41,600

It's called fishing, not catching.

:

01:03:42,045 --> 01:03:42,275

Right?

:

01:03:42,275 --> 01:03:45,255

So if I get a little antsy about

them being too loud because it'll

:

01:03:45,265 --> 01:03:48,535

scare away the fish or, Oh yeah,

wait, let's be playful here.

:

01:03:48,535 --> 01:03:51,535

It's okay to splash and scare

the fish because the real reason

:

01:03:51,535 --> 01:03:52,805

we're here is being together.

:

01:03:52,985 --> 01:03:55,125

The real reason we're here

is because it's beautiful.

:

01:03:55,135 --> 01:03:55,935

Let's come out here.

:

01:03:56,215 --> 01:03:57,535

, we don't need the fish to live.

:

01:03:57,725 --> 01:03:59,295

, we don't need to eat the fish.

:

01:03:59,595 --> 01:04:00,515

So let's be playful.

:

01:04:00,525 --> 01:04:01,115

Let's let's.

:

01:04:01,405 --> 01:04:03,965

So going back to even

that treasure, right?

:

01:04:04,035 --> 01:04:07,845

So if your treasure is playfulness,

what are the things that you care about

:

01:04:08,525 --> 01:04:13,315

that will You to remember that playful

is something you want in your life.

:

01:04:13,755 --> 01:04:16,545

And so when it gets in, when

something gets in the way, right?

:

01:04:16,545 --> 01:04:19,545

Like, oh, you're asking me to

play and I have work to do.

:

01:04:19,545 --> 01:04:20,225

I got to make dinner.

:

01:04:20,225 --> 01:04:20,975

I got to go this.

:

01:04:20,975 --> 01:04:21,225

I got to,

:

01:04:23,585 --> 01:04:28,145

if that's one of my goals, then I'm

going to try and I'm going to, , and

:

01:04:28,205 --> 01:04:32,185

the best way that I think it just

to answer it even more quickly in

:

01:04:32,185 --> 01:04:35,305

short, , in short is watch your kids.

:

01:04:35,775 --> 01:04:37,985

They were, , they haven't

forgotten how to play yet.

:

01:04:38,850 --> 01:04:41,680

So if you can literally just put

things away and sit down on the

:

01:04:41,680 --> 01:04:43,940

floor, you'll be, you'll be reminded.

:

01:04:46,180 --> 01:04:46,550

Nice.

:

01:04:47,420 --> 01:04:51,570

Yeah, I think, I think this is an,

that's an excellent way to, to end here.

:

01:04:51,650 --> 01:04:56,160

Jason, I appreciate you, , sharing your

wisdom, sharing your, that framework

:

01:04:56,220 --> 01:04:58,230

of the, , , the treasure and the four.

:

01:04:58,535 --> 01:05:03,035

Values is so powerful for people

to adopt into their own world.

:

01:05:03,035 --> 01:05:06,595

, if you haven't tried something like that,

I think that's a great place to start

:

01:05:07,295 --> 01:05:09,904

and find Jason at journeymenfoundation.

:

01:05:09,904 --> 01:05:11,345

com on LinkedIn.

:

01:05:12,735 --> 01:05:15,545

It's really a pleasure to have

you have a great conversation.

:

01:05:15,545 --> 01:05:18,855

And it's going to help so many men and

dads in their own journey to feel not

:

01:05:18,855 --> 01:05:23,045

so alone and to feel like, , , there are

communities out there of men and dads that

:

01:05:23,045 --> 01:05:24,435

are talking about , these types of things.

:

01:05:24,435 --> 01:05:25,385

So thank you again.

:

01:05:26,555 --> 01:05:27,185

Oh, thank you.

:

01:05:27,185 --> 01:05:30,325

And, , like I said, long overdue, you

and I've kind of known each other and

:

01:05:30,325 --> 01:05:33,515

talked about things peripherally and

Eric, it's been great to meet you.

:

01:05:33,515 --> 01:05:36,625

And, you know, I only, like I said,

my only request is we have another

:

01:05:36,625 --> 01:05:38,365

conversation recorded or otherwise.

:

01:05:39,095 --> 01:05:39,625

Can't wait.

:

01:05:39,715 --> 01:05:40,465

Looking forward to it.

:

01:05:40,465 --> 01:05:40,795

All right.

:

01:05:41,285 --> 01:05:42,115

Thank you very much.

:

01:05:42,245 --> 01:05:42,775

We'll talk soon.

:

01:05:42,815 --> 01:05:43,355

Thank you

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Dads Interrupted
Real Talk on Fatherhood, Relationships, & Growth
What does it mean to be a good man—and a present dad—in a world that never taught you how?
Dads Interrupted is a podcast about fatherhood, masculinity, and the journey to becoming the man your family actually needs. Hosted by men’s coach and dad of 12+ years Fred Van Riper, Dads Interrupted dives deep into the conversations men aren’t having—but desperately need.

We explore what it means to lead with purpose, break free from outdated roles, and build the kind of relationships that change everything—at home, at work, and in your own head.

You’ll hear honest, real-world stories from men navigating fatherhood, marriage, emotional growth, and the myths that hold us back. As a Certified Fair Play Facilitator, Fred offers tools for shared responsibility, emotional leadership, and creating a home that works for everyone.

This isn’t about losing power—it’s about gaining something far greater: Respect. Intimacy. Legacy.

If you’re ready to break the cycle and build something better—this podcast is your starting point.

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Frederick Van Riper

Hi, I'm Fred, a coach, father, and the creator of Seat at the Table Coaching.

I work with men who are doing a lot right on paper…

but still feel like they’re missing at home, stuck in their heads, or showing up as someone they don’t quite recognize.

This pod is where we strip it back.

No lectures. No performance. Just tools, stories, and real conversations to help you lead with more presence—without selling your soul in the process.