G-6DEFP72BRX Men's Mental Health with John Sendim - Dads Interrupted

Episode 8

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Published on:

23rd Jul 2024

Men's Mental Health with John Sendim

John Sendim is a registered psychotherapist and the Founder & Director of Uplift Therapy for Men practicing in Toronto, Ontario.

He is also a husband and a father of his 2-year old daughter.

In this episode, John shares the value he sees in joining a men's group to find a sense of community.

John lets us in on what Uplift Therapy for Men is all about, shares some common themes he sees men struggle with, and offers insight into using anger as data.

He admits to his own biggest struggle . . . and he shares the story of his own father's passing and how he became the caregiver after his dad suffered a stroke.

All this and more...

This... is Dads Interrupted.

To check out what John's up to:

Website: Uplift Therapy for Men

LinkedIn: John Sendim

RESOURCE:

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Disclaimer: The content contained herein is for inspirational, educational, and entertainment purposes only. Nowhere in this podcast do we diagnose or treat a viewer/listener with any kind of psychological, mental, emotional or physical disorder as might be diagnosed and treated by a personal psychologist or other professional advisor. The content is not intended to be a substitute for working with a therapist but is for the purpose of educating the viewer about new approaches to working on personal problems. Viewers/listeners should use this podcast at their own risk, with the understanding that we are not liable for its impact or effect on its users. Viewing/listening to the podcast does not form a practitioner/client relationship between the viewer/listener.

Transcript
Speaker:

Alright, welcome to Dad's Interrupted.

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I'm super stoked today to have

John Sendham on the podcast.

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I'm here with John and Eric.

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Eric's my co host, as most of you know

if you've been listening now for a while.

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So a little bit about John.

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John's a registered

psychotherapist, founder, director

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of Uplift Therapy for Men.

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He's dedicated to creating a supportive

space for men to address mental health

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challenges, and John also is a husband

and father himself, so he has certainly

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experienced some challenges of his own.

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Being both a husband and a father.

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So we're going to dive into that.

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But before we do, John, you

know, appreciate you spending

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an hour with us today.

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Thanks for coming on.

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Thanks for having me here.

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So, we always start every episode

asking our dads what does it mean to you?

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To be an interrupted dad, yeah, I

think this is a timely podcast because

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there's been quite a few interruptions

and trying to schedule this in.

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So quite, quite fitting to say the

least but to me, being interrupted

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dad means just trying to navigate the

delicate balance between the fatherhood

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and the interruptions of daily living.

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There's so much that happens in day to day

that any moment you could be interrupted.

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So.

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I could be having this podcast right

now and get a phone call from daycare.

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It's like, Hey, daughter's sick.

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Gotta go pick her up.

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That's been kind of the storyline.

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These past couple months where

daughter's constantly getting

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sick and have to kind of drop what

I'm doing to go attend to her.

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I'm closest, she's like right down the

street, so I'm capable of getting her.

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So I got to kind of put my stuff

on hold to, to attend to her needs.

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And given that I work with clients and

some of them are fathers themselves,

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they understand what happens that these

interruptions happen and they're quite

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flexible in understanding that we're able

to reschedule and have that fine balance.

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So it's always been about being flexible,

patient and present with what happens.

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So it comes up.

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Yeah.

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It's certainly the

challenges of daily life.

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As, as, as dad is, it can be plentiful.

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Yeah.

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The, the idea behind the Interrupted

Dads, Dads Interrupted, for me, was kind

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of like a also like a double meaning,

if you will, and I know you, this is

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your world, so I'm, I'm excited to talk

about this with you and learn some,

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some things myself today, but some of,

like, the more Maybe invisible type of

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interruptions it you know, in the, in

the ways of like mental health challenges

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that men face and, you know, often

maybe aren't comfortable talking about.

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So that's what I really, yeah,

there's those physical, literal

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interruptions that we face, but there's

also some other interruptions that

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kind of prevents us from becoming.

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The best husbands and fathers we can be.

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So I want to dive into that.

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Tell me just how you got

started with the work you do.

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Cause obviously the work you do

with men and fathers is so powerful

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and so helpful to, to your clients.

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But let's talk about mental health because

I know a lot of people it's a hot topic

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over the last, decade with all the.

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Gun violence, etc.

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And still it seems like people

don't want to talk about it openly.

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So let's dive in.

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Yeah.

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So how far back do you want me to go?

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Well, I guess whatever you think will be

valuable and impactful to the listeners.

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And yeah, I want to hear your story.

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So whatever you're willing to share, that

kind of helps us understand who John is.

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Yeah.

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So I would say it started

for me at a young age.

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I was that kid in school that people

would come to with their problems.

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I just had a knack for listening.

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And the funny part was, it was

always girls that they would come

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share their problems, like, Oh,

someone still said this or that.

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And I just kind of be talking

to them, help giving them some

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sort of like relationship advice.

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Again, what did I know as a kid, right?

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And I always had the fascination

for psychology and like Freud, Jung.

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So that always piqued my

curiosity and interest.

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I never thought I was gonna

become a therapist, to be honest.

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I've always looked into that

field, but I wasn't academically

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inclined for the most part.

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But I did have a mother who kind of

pushed me in that direction of Being

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studious, going to school, studying,

and eventually I did get to university.

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And when I was in university, I

got to study a lot of psychology,

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Buddhist philosophy, religion,

different ways of thinking.

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And that really got my interest into

this whole, how does the mind work?

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How do we get depressed or when

we're struggling, what do we do

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to overcome those kinds of things?

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So always like listening to

other people's stories, being

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fascinated with that as well.

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And eventually got into grad school and.

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The, the program that I was studying

was spiritual care and psychotherapy.

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So looking at suffering more

from a spiritual lens and as

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a therapeutic tool as well.

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So I got to work in the hospital setting

supporting patients, family members

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going through their own distress.

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And the thing that should add here

too is when I was in undergrad,

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I had my own situation with my

father who suffered a stroke.

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I was a second, I was

going into second year.

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It was in the, it was August.

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We get a phone call saying

that dad's in the hospital.

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He suffered a stroke.

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And we're just like, Well, our

whole life change and shifted.

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I had this father figure who was like

the man of the house, the provider to now

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being in the hospital, being a patient

and we had to be the caregivers for him.

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So kind of going through my own

experience in that sense allowed me

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to see things from the other side and

starting to become like a professional

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and getting training in that area.

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I had both experiences of like,

okay, what does it look like being

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in that situation and now helping

people going through that situation.

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So, I have my own, father experience

there, so being a caregiver was

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something that I didn't think I was

capable of doing, but just did it.

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And I remember the nurses would always

see me, because I would always be

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there, my mom and I, and they're like,

you're always here, you're always with

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your dad, yeah, no shit, it's my dad,

obviously I'm going to be with him.

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But they were just so fascinated, because

a lot of families would be abandoned.

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A lot of people, especially there

was a lot of dads there that their

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kids wouldn't come, or their partners

would abandon them and leave them.

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That's heartbreaking.

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That can't be right.

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So in my studies, I got to

learn a lot about that kind of

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went through my own healing.

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Then unfortunately, my dad did pass

away after I think a third stroke.

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And again, just going through that

grieving just me and my mom and my, my

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partner now wife at the time and just

trying to navigate life through that.

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Again, my dad wasn't there at my wedding.

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He wasn't there when my daughter was born.

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So I missed all those

opportunities as well.

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And I was just sad to not have him there

and try to talk about these things.

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Like, hey, I'm a dad now.

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Can you tell me what it was

like when you were a dad?

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Right?

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And I didn't get that opportunity

to have those stories and share.

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But what I do recall from my mom

telling me is that my dad was

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involved in my life as a child.

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He apparently changed more

diapers than my mom did.

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So he was there and we had

that good bond and connection.

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So when he was in the hospital

bedridden, I changed his diapers.

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I cut his hair.

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I did all those things

that he would do for me.

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Shaved him, all that kind of stuff too.

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Yeah, that's beautiful, John.

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And I'm sorry, sorry you had to go through

that, but that is a beautiful story too.

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, society tells men a lot that The

message is that we're not capable of

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being caregivers or, or we're not,

or even maybe that we're not supposed

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to be the primary caregivers, right?

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Even, even the way some of the support

systems are set up, like with parental

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leave, you know, where, , typically

when you hear parenthal leave, most

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people automatically think of mom and

then, and then if dad tries to take

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parental leave from work, it's looked

at as if it's like some strange thing.

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Like, why would you,

why isn't mom doing it?

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Like, you're right.

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So it's like, yeah, hopefully some of

those narratives are shifting towards

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a more equitable, , Take but yeah,

that's a beautiful story and appreciate

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you sharing that What made you get

specifically involved in men's work

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because I think right now your practice

is uplift therapy for men Yep, so tell us

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more about that journey Yeah, absolutely.

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So when I graduated as any

like new therapist, you try to

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figure out a different role.

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So I would apply for different

opportunities didn't get those

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opportunities I was looking for.

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And again, it was probably my

own lack of confidence again,

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being new into the field.

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I didn't know what I didn't know.

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And so I decided to just start

my own practice one day a week.

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It was like on a Saturday, kind of

throw up a shingle, throw a profile

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on psychology today, start my website.

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And I It was more of like

a generalist practitioner.

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So I'd say like, Hey, I help

you with anxiety, all these

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kinds of different things.

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So it didn't market towards men, but a

lot of my clients were men oddly enough.

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So I wasn't marketing towards

them, but they were finding me

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and I was working with them.

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And, and then I was doing some

business coaching program.

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This was like a couple of years later

and they talked about this concept of

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niching, finding like your ideal client.

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And then I'm sitting there like,

Hey, who is my ideal client?

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Who do I enjoy working with?

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I'm like, Oh yeah, there's these clients

that I really enjoyed working with

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that we're having these conversations.

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Just the time's flowing.

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It's like, Oh shit.

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Where's the time going type of thing.

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And then that's when I kind of pivoted.

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I'm like, okay, I want to

help men being a man myself.

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I know what we kind of go through and day

day in society, especially in:

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Nowadays, I'm like, okay, there's a

need, there's a market there again,

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sometimes getting men to, to come to

therapy is a challenge in and of itself.

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So I understood that was part of the

process, the journey, but I'm like,

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you know what, there's need for it.

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Let's let's, let's do it.

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Right.

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So I hired a web designer.

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And he kind of helped me through

the process of getting, finding

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that avatar, that ideal client.

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We went through like the details

of like their age their education

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levels, their current struggles.

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So finding like that ideal

person that I was talking to

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when I was making my website.

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And at the time I wasn't thinking about

dads because I wasn't a dad myself.

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So that came afterwards.

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When I started becoming

a dad myself, right?

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So when my wife was pregnant, I

started thinking about all that stuff.

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And then when we had the baby, there

was not resources available for dads.

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I would look at the hospital, kind of

look at what's there, and I would see like

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everything's dedicated towards the mom.

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Which is great, it's needed,

but what about the dad?

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Right?

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And I was lucky enough along

my journey too, where I was

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connected with another therapist.

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Who's quite senior, a father himself,

and we collaborated on, we connected via

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LinkedIn and then collaborated together

and just had these conversations as well.

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Like, he came, I went to him in

his part of the city, he came to

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mine, we had these walk and talks,

just sharing about our experiences.

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Again, a lot of similarities, a lot of

parallels, and we just decided to develop

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a workshop together to support dads.

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It was funny when we developed

that workshop because there

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was a lot of hype around it.

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But not a lot of sign up.

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So we, like, people are saying like,

yeah, there's, we want to support you.

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We want to share it with our clients

and we shared it out there, but then

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I think we only had three clients that

signed up and there were his clients

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that wanted to be part of the group.

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And someone was coming from like another

city over, which was like about an hour

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drive, but they really wanted that.

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So going back to like the groups and

stuff, they wanted that community of being

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with other fathers and sharing their own

father journey and their own stories too.

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Yeah, yeah, I think community is

huge, especially for men because it's

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what I found is, , it's difficult.

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And this is just my personal experience.

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I'm not necessarily saying

this is for for everyone.

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But what I found is it's

really difficult to find men.

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You know, to connect with on that deeper

level, to be willing to be open and talk

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about some of these, these harder things,

these uncomfortable things, which is part

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of why I wanted to start this podcast

to begin with was to say, Hey, there's

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men out there that want to share their

stories and talk about some of their

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failings and some of their wins and just

sharing the wins and the losses , and

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to not feel so isolated and alone in the

world , as a man, and as a dad, especially

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with all the messaging, I think, There's

a lot of negative messaging , on social

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and on in, on the internet about men

being toxic or, , there's a lot of

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bad information out there that people

I think can take it and run with it.

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And so I'm hoping that with our

conversation and with the other

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conversations I'm having with men and

dads, it's like, Hey, you know what?

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Everybody's a work in progress and

we're all just trying to do our best.

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, and men aren't bad.

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Men . Shouldn't have to feel shame

or embarrassment if they maybe don't,

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like you said earlier, I think you

said you don't know what you don't know

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talking about your therapy practice.

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Well, it's the same with being a father.

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You don't know what you don't know.

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It's the same with being a good husband.

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Like there are things you can always

be looking to learn and grow and get

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better as a husband and a father.

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And that's, I think for me, what

being a human is and what being a

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man, a good man is, is to say, Hey.

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I'm over here.

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I don't know everything, but I want

help and I want to talk about it and

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I'm willing to talk about it openly

and I know for some men that's

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not comfortable and that's okay.

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But this is why I wanted to do this.

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So it's like, Hey, if you're not willing

to say it out on the, in the stratosphere

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of the Internet, at least you have this.

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You can listen to and you can

shoot us private messages.

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If you have a question certainly Any of us

are willing to kind of share our stories

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and, and commiserate , if you will.

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And yeah.

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So , appreciate you being

open and honest with that.

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Yeah.

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That's why I de decide to create a

practice dedicated towards men, right?

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Because again, knowing that there's

not that many sports available to

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men or dads specifically Mm-Hmm.

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, I decide to like, okay, I have the

skillset, I have this background,

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let's kind of put it to market,

put it out there and get men's

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support that they want to need.

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Right?

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Because when I notice, when I

do consult with clients, I ask

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them, how'd you hear about me?

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What made you decide to

reach out to me specifically?

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And they'll say like,

oh, it was your website.

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Oh, it was the name,

Uplift Therapy for Men.

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It's specifically for men.

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Oh, male therapist.

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Oh, it's suffering in silence.

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Like all these key elements that selfishly

do help me in the marketing side of

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things, but again, get men in the door.

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As soon as they're in the door, then

they can start the healing process

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of , maybe they have a father wound.

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Maybe they lost their own father,

or mother, or something along the

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way that they need to heal from.

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Maybe they're dealing with a child

who has special needs, and that's

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a challenge in and of itself.

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The stressors of that.

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Or they're struggling

in their relationship.

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And they want to talk about that

because they can't talk to the wife

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because they're having that situation.

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They need that professional help.

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So having someone that maybe has some

lived experience of that, or can touch

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upon those key points again, just

being a man and understanding from that

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perspective, helps men being able to open

up and take off that armor and be like,

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Hey, I can actually sit here and talk

to you because you're a guy, you know,

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it's like, yeah, we can have like kind

of shoot the shit in some regards, but

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let's get down into the, the nitty gritty.

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Like what's here, what's bothering

you and what skills, what things

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do you want to learn that can help

you be a better man, better father,

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better husband at the day too.

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Yeah, I love that, John.

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I love that you're doing this

work because , it is so needed.

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It really is.

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, and I want to break this barrier

that maybe some of our listeners even

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have is that, , going to get therapy,

going to get counseling, going to

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seeking advice outside, , is strength.

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You know, a lot of people look at it

as a weakness, admitting that you

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don't know everything, or you got

to figure it all out on your own.

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That is complete.

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It's a complete myth that we're told when

we're little boys, , the whole man up.

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Yeah.

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, don't cry , all the negative things

we're told that it does not help you when

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life inevitably will throw you different

challenges that you've never faced before.

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Like you said, maybe it's a

relationship issue you never thought of.

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Maybe it's, a special needs.

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Child that you're caring for.

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It could be any number of things that

you just won't necessarily have all

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the answers to, unless you go ask

someone who's been there, done that,

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or knows about it and has studied it.

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And, you know, thank you.

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Thank you really, John,

for doing this work.

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Cause I really think it's

super powerful and impactful.

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So I love that.

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Yeah, so you mentioned the

walk and talk, and I think you

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also do that with some clients.

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Is that correct?

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Correct.

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Can you explain that whole

idea and that process?

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Because I love that idea.

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I think it's wonderful.

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. Yeah, so I came around this

concept of walk and talk

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therapy way before the pandemic.

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So I was doing a lot of research

in this area as a way to offer a

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different service to clients, right?

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Because there's the traditional in

person where you're sitting from

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across each other, talking about

the problems in an office setting.

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There's the online environment, which

became popular during the pandemic.

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But that's kind of like,

you're just sitting with the

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problems, you're really stagnant.

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It's not really, Engaging, right?

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So when I was doing research,

I came across walk and talk

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therapy and talked about like the

therapeutic benefits of walking.

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So just getting outside, moving

therapeutic elements of nature.

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So being in a scenic environment

with trees, water, cause I live

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by the lake here and then therapy.

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So you're combining three things

all into one and getting clients

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out of their problem, actually

walking through it literally.

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Right.

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So again, if they were dealing

with a relationship issue, how

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do we walk through that problem?

354

:

What's happening here?

355

:

Right.

356

:

And I'm there to support you through that.

357

:

You're not alone in that.

358

:

So you have someone that you can talk to.

359

:

And I remember as a child, I

would go on walks with my friend.

360

:

We would go from like one

place to the next place.

361

:

And it's just like, I'm flu.

362

:

Like, we could've took the transit,

like the subway or anything, but we

363

:

walked and we got to our destination,

and it just kind of breezed by.

364

:

And we're having conversations

along the way, too.

365

:

Probably talking about silly things

as a kid, but it still was impactful.

366

:

Right?

367

:

Because you're having your

buddy there, you're sharing.

368

:

You're walking, again, it wasn't

as scenic it was just on the,

369

:

like regular busy roads, but I

still found it to be beneficial.

370

:

And then when I introduced it into my

practice I haven't done it with too many

371

:

clients, it's still something that I

have to market a bit better, I would say.

372

:

But a lot of clients are interested in

that, they're like, oh yeah, like, I see

373

:

you do walk and talk, can we do that?

374

:

I actually just had a consult before this

call where a client's interested in that.

375

:

And they're coming from a different

town over, a different city,

376

:

that they want to engage in that.

377

:

Because they don't want to do the

online, the in person, they want

378

:

to be outside in nature and moving.

379

:

So if we can combine all three

of those together, great.

380

:

There's so much research in just

movement, just walking, there's research

381

:

in nature, there's research in therapy.

382

:

So let's put it all together

and get all those benefits.

383

:

Yeah, I love it too.

384

:

I mean, I, I go to

counseling, but I don't.

385

:

I go online, , and that's , my

counselor is actually , far away.

386

:

I think she's like two or three

hours away from where I'm at.

387

:

, but yeah, if that service was available

and I liked the counselor that was here,

388

:

I would love taking advantage of that.

389

:

Cause , I do believe nature is restorative

and certainly getting up and moving.

390

:

. That sets you apart too, John.

391

:

Not only the uplift for men, but

also offering that , as an option,

392

:

I think is really attractive.

393

:

I think a lot of men would be

interested in something like that.

394

:

And the cool thing is you can

use nature as a therapeutic tool.

395

:

So depending on what you're doing.

396

:

The conversation is about if there's

like a branch, a leaf the waves of the

397

:

water, because the cool thing where

I'm at is you see the city skyline.

398

:

So you see Toronto, see

the CN Tower and stuff.

399

:

Then if you just kind of shift your

attention to the other side, you

400

:

just see like vastness of water.

401

:

That's pretty much it.

402

:

So you have like these two

contrasts of like, emptiness

403

:

and space and all that stuff.

404

:

And then you have like the busyness

of the city and the city skyscrapers.

405

:

Right, right.

406

:

Yeah, that is powerful imagery, too.

407

:

100%.

408

:

I want to talk, I know you can't

give specific, , client information,

409

:

obviously, but I do want to talk about the

commonalities, if there are any, of what

410

:

you see men, , typically struggling with.

411

:

Is , there are some underlying

themes here that you're seeing

412

:

more frequently than others?

413

:

Yeah, so lately, I've been

noticing a theme around anger.

414

:

So men either not able to express their

anger appropriately, or someone's pointing

415

:

out that their anger is dangerous.

416

:

They're scared of their anger,

that the person's anger.

417

:

So they really want to understand

how do they work with their anger?

418

:

Because again, going back to what you

said before, as men, we're taught to

419

:

stuff it down, shut up, don't cry.

420

:

So we're really suppressing ourselves

from expressing how we really feel.

421

:

So when anger does arise to the

surface, we don't know what to do.

422

:

Or maybe we showcase it in a maybe

bad way, toxic way, let's say,

423

:

and Then it leads to that shame

piece of like, oh shit, now I feel

424

:

bad for expressing how I felt.

425

:

But I've been bottled up so much

that this is how, this is the

426

:

only way I know how to express it.

427

:

And it could be also a learned behavior

where they saw their dad, their

428

:

mother, someone around them exhibit

those moments of anger and them as

429

:

a child's like, oh, yeah, that's how

you act when you're feeling that way.

430

:

Or maybe they're suppressed

to be like, no, you don't talk

431

:

about it as a child, right?

432

:

They didn't get, they weren't given

that space to express themselves fully.

433

:

So again, they have to hold

it in throughout those years.

434

:

Now they're adults.

435

:

It just kind of blows up to the

surface and maybe they punch the wall

436

:

or hurt themselves in the process

or, or sadly other people too, right?

437

:

Anything else?

438

:

Anything besides angry?

439

:

You see?

440

:

So I work with a lot of new dads.

441

:

So again, adjusting to that new adjustment

of just being in the coupleship to

442

:

now being with a child and the changes

in the relationships the long nights.

443

:

Stress there.

444

:

So it's like a sleep.

445

:

It's like a sleep.

446

:

Yeah, you name it.

447

:

They're experiencing it.

448

:

And then the other thing that I noticed is

Dads that have multiple kids So maybe they

449

:

have two or three kids and just trying to

navigate the life with those challenges

450

:

of trying to get all the kids Ready out

the door if they have their own career.

451

:

You got to make sure that they're the

right for that And I notice, I also

452

:

work with a lot of entrepreneurs or

people that are self employed, so that's

453

:

another area that I'm noticing too.

454

:

And, I should also say that I work with

male survivors of childhood sexual abuse.

455

:

Which again, is not something

that's really talked about.

456

:

I think it's really hidden.

457

:

But that's another area that we

focus on in the practice too.

458

:

Yeah, that work is important.

459

:

, is difficult because the anytime you

have a trauma like that, , it's gotta

460

:

be so difficult to unpack all that.

461

:

Obviously, you've gone through, all

the education and training to help

462

:

men through those issues as well.

463

:

And that isn't something that, , a lot

of times when we talk about , child

464

:

abuse, sex abuse, , , I think we

also tend to think about women.

465

:

Not necessarily for boys.

466

:

I was going to say, yeah, not necessarily

like equal statistically, but just it

467

:

happens to both and it's not talked

about as much when we talk about men.

468

:

And it's not reported either for men.

469

:

Like men don't report this because

there's that shame element.

470

:

There's maybe some sort of guilt.

471

:

They should have protected themselves.

472

:

They should have known better.

473

:

Like all these different things.

474

:

So they don't, they don't

want to talk about it.

475

:

Right.

476

:

Right.

477

:

Well, glad that there's

a resource out there.

478

:

So if anyone, you know, listening

is, has gone through something like

479

:

that, , please get the help you need.

480

:

John remind everybody where your

bass out of, just so they know.

481

:

Yeah, so I'm based out of Toronto,

Ontario, so I'm in Canada.

482

:

Yeah, so I think, correct me if I'm

wrong, as far as like the counseling

483

:

goes, because you're in Toronto, in

that area, you're licensed there, you

484

:

wouldn't be able to work with people

anywhere, you only can work with

485

:

people in Toronto area, or in Canada.

486

:

So I'd only be, so I'm licensed in

the province of Ontario, so I can only

487

:

work with people that are located in

Ontario so again, it could be anywhere

488

:

within Ontario, but outside of that,

then I'd have to be licensed in those

489

:

other provinces and I wouldn't be

able to work with people from the U.

490

:

S.

491

:

either.

492

:

And is it upliftherapy.

493

:

com?

494

:

Upliftherapyformen.

495

:

com.

496

:

Upliftherapyformen.

497

:

com.

498

:

So, yeah, anyone interested

and in those areas that needs

499

:

help, find John that way.

500

:

John, I want to pivot a little bit.

501

:

But I want to give Eric a chance

because I know he's been quiet.

502

:

I don't know if he's

got any questions yet.

503

:

But I've got one if you don't, Eric.

504

:

But let me know.

505

:

Yeah, there's a couple things you said

that that I found extremely fascinating.

506

:

One the anger I noticed when

my daughter was first born.

507

:

I had a surge of anger towards the world

and it came, it came from a, I think

508

:

a protective place where I'd be like,

I will fucking murder for this child.

509

:

How dare you drive that fast down the

street where I'm walking my daughter.

510

:

And it took me a couple of years

to kind of realize what that was.

511

:

And so I just found

that really interesting.

512

:

I don't know if, if you

see a lot of that as well.

513

:

Or if that's just my own thing, kind

of tapping into what you're saying.

514

:

No, I think that that's a,

that's a good thing to tap into.

515

:

I don't think I've seen it that way,

but I think that's within most men.

516

:

Maybe it's not vocalized

like that, but there is that.

517

:

That's why like we need anger, right?

518

:

Like anger is a healthy.

519

:

mechanism that shows up when

it's something like that.

520

:

If your child's being endangered, you

want, you need that anger to fight

521

:

that person to protect your child.

522

:

So again, anger gets a bad rap

that, Oh, it's a bad emotion.

523

:

It's negative.

524

:

It's toxic.

525

:

But the way I look at anger or

any emotions, it's data points.

526

:

It's data that's showing, showing up

to the surface that we need to address.

527

:

That, okay, you're angry

for a particular reason.

528

:

Yeah, your daughter's in

danger, you need to protect her.

529

:

You're gonna do what you gotta do.

530

:

It's when it's misdirected.

531

:

When it's, there's nothing going on.

532

:

And then you lash out and

do something in that regard.

533

:

Then that could be cause

for concern, right?

534

:

Yeah.

535

:

So it has to be within a

certain context, I would say.

536

:

So in other words, and correct me

if I'm wrong, John, it's , almost

537

:

like any emotion, no matter if it's

negative or quote unquote negative

538

:

or positive It's almost like a signal

like, hey, here's, here's this piece

539

:

of information that I want you to know

about, but that doesn't mean that you

540

:

take that and like express it in an

angry way to your child or to your

541

:

partner or to the neighbor or whoever.

542

:

It's like, hey, you're angry.

543

:

Now, what do you do with that information

and what can you, how can you use it

544

:

to be productive and help the situation?

545

:

Is that, that's kind

of, kind of fair to say?

546

:

Yeah, I would say so.

547

:

Yeah.

548

:

What else you got, Eric?

549

:

The walk and talk is fascinating.

550

:

And I was thinking while you were saying

that, I was wondering if other activities

551

:

would work because when I hang out with

my friends, I, it's always activity based.

552

:

Right.

553

:

Even if it's, even if it's just

to go have a beer at a bar,

554

:

I want to play darts or pool.

555

:

It's, there's an activity I want

or like, I think Fred and I used

556

:

to play poker until the, until

the late hours and it wasn't about

557

:

poker it was about just hanging out.

558

:

Right.

559

:

Have you thought about other activities?

560

:

What other, or is it really

just about connecting in nature?

561

:

Like, I don't, like, obviously

not a bar, but like, Would

562

:

darts in the backyard work?

563

:

Or do you think Game of chess.

564

:

Chess?

565

:

Test might be too much focused, right?

566

:

Too much focused, yeah.

567

:

To kind of tap into the other thing,

when I was a child I had to go to

568

:

anger management therapy because I

was getting a lot of fights at school.

569

:

I think that was 3rd or 4th grade.

570

:

And I remember the therapist, I

don't remember anything about it.

571

:

We only met a few times, but I do

remember we played chutes and ladders.

572

:

So, I think that was how he

got me to, you know, just pay

573

:

attention to this while we talk.

574

:

And so, it kind of made me think

about like, I wonder if there's other

575

:

activities that could work as well.

576

:

Yeah, I think there, there

could be something to it.

577

:

Again, the activity can sometimes

distract from what's coming to the

578

:

surface sometimes because you can use

that as a distraction mechanism, right?

579

:

It's like, oh, if I'm shooting

darts or something, then

580

:

maybe I'm avoiding something.

581

:

So I'm just going to keep shooting

with kids because it's hard to

582

:

engage them and talk therapy.

583

:

That's why I like having play

therapy or other mechanisms where

584

:

they can actually express through

play through art, through sand play.

585

:

There's different elements there for kids

that helps them express Whatever there

586

:

is that they're going through through

the activity that they're engaging with

587

:

in terms of with guys, I have noticed

or seen again outside of the therapeutic

588

:

context, more like in the coaching

realm doing a lot of kind of like the

589

:

walk and talk, but being out in nature.

590

:

And there's a group in the UK

that does using the archetypes and

591

:

kind of embodying the architect.

592

:

So if you're the king worm, just lover,

there's certain activities they'll do to.

593

:

To get into those kind of areas I've

noticed, I think it's in Australia.

594

:

They've also done dudes

and dogs or something.

595

:

So kind of bringing your dog outside.

596

:

Using dogs as a way to bond

or even bringing your kids

597

:

like bring your strollers.

598

:

I think it's like strollers and something.

599

:

So dads can bring your kids.

600

:

Having the kids engaged

in activities as well.

601

:

Just doing the camping.

602

:

I was never in scouts or anything like

that, but there's some clients that have

603

:

been in scouts and they talk about that.

604

:

So you get to learn a tool,

a skill along the way.

605

:

And maybe that's therapeutic

in and of itself too.

606

:

And there's also for older men who

are like in retirement, there's this

607

:

concept of like the man shed, where

you go into an area where you can

608

:

use power tools to create things.

609

:

And it's a way to talk about what

it is that you're going through.

610

:

So it's trying to like be creative

in all these endeavors too.

611

:

The activity that jumped to my

mind right away was play catch.

612

:

play catch I was like, and that'd

be, that'd be dope just to play

613

:

catch and talk about me for an hour.

614

:

That would not, I could, I could see

myself getting into that, you know?

615

:

Yeah.

616

:

I think it's just, I think it is

interesting, , from a professional

617

:

standpoint, John, for you, like how

you break through in sessions , with

618

:

certain types of people, , and men,

619

:

.

, tend to be a little, maybe more reserved and willing to open up.

620

:

So, but I'm sure you have , your abilities

as well that you rely on, , without having

621

:

to go necessarily way outside the box.

622

:

But I do love that.

623

:

I love thinking about these creative ways

because I think it's important to, , have

624

:

, , that level of creativity sometimes just

to kind of break through, when you're

625

:

maybe , hitting a block with a client.

626

:

I want to talk about your

personal experience, John, what

627

:

do you struggle with the most?

628

:

In your relationship at home

as a husband or or as a father.

629

:

Yeah, I think it's the technology

putting the device down.

630

:

Again, being self employed, being

a therapist, there's all these

631

:

things that I have to do that

come up emails from clients.

632

:

And that kind of takes me

away from the present context.

633

:

And I'm trying to work on that, like

there's moments where I'm good, and

634

:

there's some moments where I slip up.

635

:

And just trying to be mindful of

those moments where I am slipping up.

636

:

And not beating myself shaming myself,

or saying those kind of things,

637

:

and putting myself into that hole.

638

:

It's like, okay, yeah, like, I'm

noticing that I'm engaged with the

639

:

phone, that I'm getting distracted.

640

:

Maybe there's some sort of anxiety,

that maybe I need to step away a bit.

641

:

So I feel like, okay, that's out of the

way now I can kind of come back and be

642

:

present because again, that's something

that I noticed with my clients too.

643

:

And I want to be there

for my daughter, right?

644

:

She's 2 years old.

645

:

I love to see her play.

646

:

, I love playing with her.

647

:

, we play these silly games and just

seeing the joy, the laughter in

648

:

her, her expression is amazing.

649

:

And I want to miss those

opportunities because she's

650

:

never going to be 2 again, right?

651

:

She's only going to get older

and I want to hold on to those

652

:

moments and those memories.

653

:

so much.

654

:

So I gotta be more mindful of

the times I'm sleeping up and

655

:

just putting the phone away.

656

:

Could be like, putting it in my office,

putting it in the kitchen somewhere, and

657

:

just coming to it afterwards, like when

she's down for a nap, or she's going to

658

:

sleep, or just something else, right?

659

:

Just going back to it afterwards.

660

:

It's not important, like this,

it's not the end of the world.

661

:

If someone has to reach me,

they will reach me and I will

662

:

respond in a timely manner too.

663

:

Do you also get sucked into , Non

professional activities , on your

664

:

device, like social media, like

it's kind of a tricky one because

665

:

I use social media for work.

666

:

Especially Facebook, because there's

a lot of like therapist Facebook

667

:

groups where there's like referrals.

668

:

So I wanna make sure like I'm in

there because sometimes I'll get in.

669

:

It'd be like, maybe like an hour or 2,

and there's already like 20 referrals.

670

:

I'm just like, oh, shit,

I missed it, right?

671

:

And there's other times where I'm

like, right at, oh, I just posted

672

:

like 2 minutes ago and I'm in there.

673

:

So just find that balance of

like, okay, do I have to be there?

674

:

Is that even my ideal client?

675

:

Right.

676

:

Cause maybe they'll say like, Oh,

male, like they're looking for a

677

:

male therapist, I'm a male therapist.

678

:

Okay.

679

:

I want to, , support that client.

680

:

But same time again, clients

are going to find me.

681

:

I don't have to worry so

much and always be on it.

682

:

But yeah, there are moments where I'll

probably be like, just a doom scroll

683

:

and Just on Instagram, just on my

personal account, just, yeah, whatever.

684

:

And that's maybe like a discovery

that's happening inside of me

685

:

that I haven't paid attention to.

686

:

Yeah.

687

:

But I haven't checked in with myself.

688

:

Yeah.

689

:

How about with your wife?

690

:

I mean, so your daughter's two.

691

:

Yep.

692

:

Like, what did, what have you found

to be the hardest thing , since

693

:

becoming a father in your relationship?

694

:

I think just the different parenting

styles especially early on when she

695

:

was a baby, like wife was really,

she's like an anxious type and she

696

:

just needs to think a certain way

and I'm more easygoing, flexible.

697

:

, let the baby play and

those kind of things.

698

:

So I think we kind of differ in that

approach and just trying to come together

699

:

and see, okay, where can we be together in

letting her, , express herself, but at the

700

:

same time being there so that she doesn't

hurt herself in the process, right?

701

:

Because being kids, you

know, things can happen.

702

:

You can fall, hurt yourself.

703

:

You want to make sure we're there to

support her when she does go through that.

704

:

Yeah.

705

:

Yeah, that's huge.

706

:

I think, you know, parent, it's

funny, , I don't know if it's the same

707

:

for you, but I know , for me, my

wife and I have been married almost 10

708

:

years now, it'll be 10 years in August.

709

:

And when we got married, I

became a dad overnight because

710

:

she already had her daughter.

711

:

Right.

712

:

So she was five when we

decided to move in together.

713

:

By house moving together.

714

:

And so it was like instant dad.

715

:

And yeah, I mean, thinking back

on it now, I'm like, wow, , that

716

:

was a pretty bold move, Fred.

717

:

That was you had no clue what you were

doing and not to say that I do now, by

718

:

the way, try to figure out as I go,

but I think that's the one thing I've

719

:

learned over the years , is really , The

biggest impact you can have on as a dad,

720

:

if you care about your role as father

and you really want to be the best.

721

:

Dad, you can be, it's always trying

to learn something new about

722

:

yourself and then about parenting.

723

:

I know with my daughter, she

does have a neurological disorder.

724

:

So , she's has a disability that affects

her ability to walk and talk clearly.

725

:

And it's intermittent.

726

:

, it's undiagnosed.

727

:

So , she was in and out of hospitals

when she was really young, even a little

728

:

bit when I became her father as well.

729

:

And that's, I think around age six

or seven, , Sarah and I decided that

730

:

we were done, letting her be the

guinea pig for all these different,

731

:

exams that they were doing on her

and still giving us zero answers.

732

:

And so, so we stopped all that,

but unfortunately nothing

733

:

has really ever changed.

734

:

The good news is that.

735

:

It hasn't necessarily seemed

to have gotten worse either.

736

:

So, I mean, , she's super smart.

737

:

Once she kind of gets moving, she can

move, but she can't really participate

738

:

in a gym class, for example, she

just can't keep up with kids like that.

739

:

And then in the mornings, especially

every morning when I wake her up for

740

:

school, her speech is very challenging,

she can't really formulate words.

741

:

And then when she does, it's

sometimes hard to understand her.

742

:

So those are the biggest

things that she struggles with.

743

:

But all that to say, becoming a dad

overnight , was What's challenging, but

744

:

I think becoming a dad anytime doesn't

matter, even if you have that nine, 10

745

:

months Prep, but what I was I guess my

point is I'm rambling here But my point

746

:

is like we never said I never really

talked about parenting styles And we

747

:

never I mean the before we became parents

together I should say so we kind of

748

:

started talking about that after as we

were kind of already parents together and

749

:

I I never really deeply thought about it.

750

:

So , to your point earlier about modeling

and models, we take from what we see.

751

:

And so , I was just kind of, Doing

what my parents did and Sarah's

752

:

like, that's not what I want

to do, , let's talk about it.

753

:

And so I think being open to those

discussions with your partner and

754

:

being willing to see the different

perspectives without taking personal

755

:

offense to that, because I think I

struggled with that in the beginning.

756

:

If I'm honest, , It was like,

Oh, well, that's what my mom did.

757

:

And , I love my mom.

758

:

Right.

759

:

That's what my dad did.

760

:

I love my dad.

761

:

, but we're allowed to choose together

and talk about it in an impactful way.

762

:

And it doesn't mean you have to.

763

:

always do what your partner says, right?

764

:

You can have those disagreements,

but if it's healthy and healthy

765

:

discussion and dialogue and you have

a good point to make, , that's fair.

766

:

Both partners have value there.

767

:

Just the idea of being open to those

conversations and being willing to

768

:

have them without feeling like it's

a personal thing or like, or even

769

:

that your parents did a bad thing.

770

:

a poor job or anything like that, that

took a little bit of time for me to kind

771

:

of get through some of that uncomfortable,

those uncomfortable feelings.

772

:

So I don't know if that resonates

with any of the listeners out

773

:

there with you guys , as fathers.

774

:

But I know I struggle with that myself.

775

:

Yeah.

776

:

And I think we didn't have

these conversations early on.

777

:

We were just kind of doing parenthood.

778

:

We're just figuring it out.

779

:

Especially with my daughter,

she was born a month early.

780

:

Yeah, it was quite a shift, right?

781

:

We weren't expecting it, and we

had to kind of, again, talking

782

:

about being interrupted, right?

783

:

Like, I was scheduled to work that day,

and my wife went for an ultrasound,

784

:

she's like, yeah, you gotta go to the

hospital, you're gonna give birth today.

785

:

And we're just like, wait, what?

786

:

Cause there's some issues with the The

amniotic fluid or something like that.

787

:

So it had to be an emergency C section.

788

:

And yeah, we never talked

about parenting styles.

789

:

Okay.

790

:

What's your parenting approach?

791

:

What's my parenting approach?

792

:

Obviously I wouldn't be able to do

my, the parenting approach that was my

793

:

parents did to me because in those days

it was not the greatest, I would say.

794

:

You guys can read into that what you want.

795

:

But I like to have fun to

just be in the moment, right?

796

:

Just have fun.

797

:

That's spontaneity, but obviously

with a baby, there's those late

798

:

nights where you're lacking sleep.

799

:

I still had to go to work, so

talking about like parental leave,

800

:

being self employed, I didn't get

the opportunity to take time off.

801

:

Like, I did take the month off when

she was born, but that was unpaid,

802

:

so that was quite a financial burden.

803

:

But my wife was able to take 18

months, so here in Canada, we do

804

:

have pretty good parental leave,

and she was able to take 18 months.

805

:

So, she had to be, she was home with the

baby 18 months, did her thing, I would

806

:

come home and do my role as a dad as well.

807

:

But we never talked about those

styles of , how do you want to parent?

808

:

How do I want to parent?

809

:

How do we parent together?

810

:

And then we kind of figured that

along the way and we've come to a good

811

:

understanding now of , okay, I know you're

anxious, I know you got to be a certain

812

:

way, and I'm a little too flexible.

813

:

So how do we, you know, bridge the gap

and have a bit of both elements there.

814

:

So.

815

:

She's again, enjoying herself

and developing fully as well.

816

:

I think for , anyone listening that maybe

isn't a parent yet, take our mistakes and

817

:

use it, use this knowledge , to talk about

how you want to parent ahead of time.

818

:

If you are deciding that you want

to become parents because it's

819

:

super important in conversations and

it's, it's a lot easier to decide.

820

:

I mean, there's always going

to be conversations, right?

821

:

It's not like you have one conversation

about parenting and you're done.

822

:

Yeah.

823

:

You know, it's an ongoing discussion.

824

:

Yeah.

825

:

And especially as, as you're.

826

:

You'll find out John, I'm sure you know

this already, but as your daughter

827

:

grows up, there's just, you almost

have to change your parenting style

828

:

in a way because there's different

things that might work when they're

829

:

younger that don't work anymore

when they're older , and certain

830

:

boundaries that you have to set that

you didn't have to set before and , all

831

:

those, so many things to think about.

832

:

So it's always an ongoing conversation,

but if you can at least kind of get

833

:

the basics down ahead of time, I

think that's super helpful because,

834

:

you don't really want to necessarily

have such a huge disagreement where

835

:

now it's like a major relationship

problem, if you can't come to consensus

836

:

on how you want to raise your kids.

837

:

So I think that's a good

conversation to have ahead of time.

838

:

I wish I had that, but I think, we're

doing pretty good Sarah and I overall,

839

:

we've had a lot of years of struggle a lot

of years of figuring out, especially with

840

:

our teenager because of their disability.

841

:

I mean, that created so many

different challenges that.

842

:

There's no parenting handbook to

begin with, and then you throw on

843

:

top of it some other things that

hardly anyone's dealing with.

844

:

And so it's like where you find

good information, how you figure it

845

:

out, what, we tried so many things

over the years that didn't work.

846

:

And there were, I mean, just full

transparency, not going to lie, it

847

:

affected my wife and I's relationship.

848

:

, we focus so much of our energy and

attention on how to be the best

849

:

parents to our daughter and failing.

850

:

A lot the, and we fought a lot, cause

we fought a lot with our daughter

851

:

and then we inevitably that fight

would then turn to each other.

852

:

Right.

853

:

And so, there was a lot of years

where we were very disconnected, I think

854

:

because after that energy spent, , you

only have so much energy for everything

855

:

else that we, kind of like put

our relationship on the back burner

856

:

so yeah, it was a, it was

a difficult experience.

857

:

This is a good segue to talk

about men's groups because you,

858

:

I think you are in a men's group.

859

:

Is that, is that right?

860

:

Correct.

861

:

Yep.

862

:

Yep.

863

:

Yeah.

864

:

So tell us more about that experience,

how you got involved with that and

865

:

what you've gained personally out

of being involved in a group of men.

866

:

Yeah.

867

:

So as I was kind of shifting into this

direction of working with men trying

868

:

to see what resources are out there, I

came across different types of groups.

869

:

So one of the groups that I joined early

on was through a community here locally

870

:

in Toronto, where we kind of, uh, went

through like those archetypes as well.

871

:

So kind of being a community of

men where we actually got to do a

872

:

bonfire as some of the activities.

873

:

So there's a lot of like online

environment, but then we would go

874

:

outside, have a bonfire and embody

some of those archetypes too.

875

:

I remember we went up into the forest.

876

:

It was like.

877

:

Dark you couldn't see anything.

878

:

You're just like trying to walk up

the hill on the forest with trees

879

:

and everything Which is quite a

cool experience And then coming

880

:

back down playing some music just

being around men and then This most

881

:

recently I joined another online

community through a man talks.

882

:

I'm not sure if you guys heard of them.

883

:

Connor Beaton.

884

:

Connor Beaton Yeah, so through his

group and the Alliance, so we have

885

:

like a whatsapp group we have weekly

check ins and what's cool is that we're

886

:

going to be doing in person events.

887

:

So that would be like a separate group.

888

:

So anyone that's local to Toronto,

we can kind of come in together and

889

:

just have these conversations as well.

890

:

In the experience you've had, what

have you gained from being, or maybe

891

:

the question should be, what's the

most impact so far that you've gained?

892

:

I think the most impact is

just having a place to share.

893

:

So if I'm going through something

I can turn to the guys and be

894

:

like, Hey, this is what I'm kind of

struggling with what I'm dealing with.

895

:

Again, I have to be open to sharing that.

896

:

Right.

897

:

So it starts with me first, if I'm willing

to take that step and check in and then

898

:

just, yeah, having those calls where.

899

:

We can support other men, right?

900

:

So if someone's going through something,

we give them the floor and provide

901

:

some input and feedback or resources.

902

:

So a resource guy, like I like to have

a lot of resources at my disposal.

903

:

And if I hear something, it's

like, Oh, here's this podcast,

904

:

or here's this book, check this

thing out, that might be helpful

905

:

to start them on their own journey.

906

:

So just having like a sense of yeah,

brotherhood, where you can talk about

907

:

whatever it is that's on your mind,

and get support as well, that you're

908

:

not alone in this in the struggle

that there's other men going through

909

:

similar situations or have been there.

910

:

So maybe they're, again,

a step ahead of you.

911

:

So now they can kinda as Connor

Bean likes to say, man it forward

912

:

or man it back type of thing too.

913

:

Yeah.

914

:

Yeah.

915

:

I love that idea of having community.

916

:

If you're willing to join a community

like that, a group of men like that,

917

:

then I, I believe that makes it more

accessible and easier for you as a man

918

:

to talk with other men about a struggle,

whereas, Maybe it's a little bit

919

:

harder to call your friend up and share

something or go to the bar with your

920

:

buddy and necessarily share something.

921

:

That's a little more personal.

922

:

Yeah.

923

:

Cause if I may hear, the thing I noticed

too, is even with your friends, maybe

924

:

they're not on the same wavelength, maybe

they're not ready to do that inner work

925

:

or go talk deep into that because you've

been working with clients, a lot of them

926

:

will say , yeah, I have good friends,

but we don't talk about these things.

927

:

We don't have these deep conversations.

928

:

Right.

929

:

Right.

930

:

So it's like, how do you find that

group of men that are willing to have

931

:

these deep conversations that do want

to talk about their stuff and get the

932

:

support at the end of the day, too?

933

:

So, give, but also receive it, too.

934

:

Because you always have that one friend

that's , always giving the advice, always

935

:

there, but are they getting support?

936

:

Do they get to check in?

937

:

Do they get to share their piece?

938

:

That's a great point, John.

939

:

And it's a great point because

that's where, , the disconnect

940

:

sometimes can come in with men.

941

:

You know, you hear it all the time.

942

:

And I've felt it even

personally, , at times in my

943

:

life where it's like, I'm lonely.

944

:

But , I'm married and I have friends,

it doesn't mean I'm alone, you can

945

:

be lonely and not, and still have

people to talk to in theory, but if you

946

:

can't talk about everything you want

to talk about with those people, then

947

:

you can feel a little bit isolated.

948

:

So certainly there are men's

groups in every, or I should say

949

:

every, in a lot of towns and cities

across Canada and the United States.

950

:

And certainly online, you can find them.

951

:

If you can't find one locally in

person, I highly encourage you if

952

:

you're struggling or if you just need

a little more than what you're getting

953

:

from your personal relationships, and

maybe you're not willing necessarily take

954

:

the step to go to one on one counseling

or therapy or coaching, then at least,

955

:

consider joining a men's group where

you start to get, more open about

956

:

those things , and not feel so alone.

957

:

I appreciate you sharing that too.

958

:

That's really awesome.

959

:

How about you, Eric?

960

:

You ever get involved with men's groups?

961

:

Who do you talk to?

962

:

Who do you talk to?

963

:

No, I was actually thinking about that.

964

:

I live in Brazil, so I'm not fluent in the

language, which is a big problem for me.

965

:

So I don't really have like a

sense of community down here.

966

:

I was just thinking about

that as you guys were talking.

967

:

I was like, man, I don't really

have a sense of community.

968

:

And it's something I

definitely need to work on.

969

:

Because there are times when I'm

like, man, I just need to get

970

:

out and be around some people.

971

:

And not even for like Not even

for like sharing deep stuff.

972

:

Just like just to just decompress

a little bit from the family.

973

:

You know what I mean?

974

:

So, yeah, that'd be that's something

I definitely need to look into.

975

:

Yeah, the language barrier definitely

is a, is a block there, but

976

:

certainly online, it's not the same.

977

:

If you're looking for a one on

one in person type of thing,

978

:

but at least it's something.

979

:

Yeah.

980

:

That's where soccer comes in.

981

:

You can play some soccer and,

Man, I tried to get into it.

982

:

I tried, I've tried to watch it.

983

:

And when it's World Cup, I, I, I enjoy

it, but then when it gets down to on

984

:

the leagues here, I just can't do it.

985

:

It's so boring to me.

986

:

There's going to kick it back and

forth for a couple hours and it's

987

:

going to be zero to zero at the end.

988

:

I can't, I can't do it.

989

:

you didn't want to go play

soccer on your old knees?

990

:

Yes.

991

:

Yeah.

992

:

Right.

993

:

With these knees.

994

:

I don't know.

995

:

I've had three surgeries on the left

one and the right one's now acting up.

996

:

So it's just like, I'm just lucky to walk.

997

:

Do you know some Portuguese?

998

:

Yeah, you know, I'm actually, , I

can understand really well, but

999

:

what it could, because, you know,

because I work in English, but I

:

00:46:00,452 --> 00:46:02,162

live here, so I hear it all the time.

:

00:46:02,472 --> 00:46:02,702

Right.

:

00:46:02,802 --> 00:46:06,132

, but when it's my turn to speak,

it takes me so long to process,

:

00:46:06,132 --> 00:46:07,582

am I conjugating that verb right?

:

00:46:07,582 --> 00:46:08,902

Is that the right verb that I want to use?

:

00:46:09,102 --> 00:46:12,992

It takes me so long to get it out that

I'm a pretty boring person to talk to.

:

00:46:13,782 --> 00:46:17,732

So that's always in the back of my head

too, instead of like just going for it,

:

00:46:18,252 --> 00:46:20,102

\ so John, I think we got to wrap up here.

:

00:46:20,192 --> 00:46:23,402

Last, the last question I guess

I have, and Eric, I don't know,

:

00:46:23,402 --> 00:46:24,562

you got any more for John?

:

00:46:26,702 --> 00:46:27,582

No, I don't think so.

:

00:46:27,632 --> 00:46:30,992

I was interested to see how your

balance is with the you work from home.

:

00:46:31,192 --> 00:46:31,992

So.

:

00:46:32,412 --> 00:46:37,772

You, you're parenting, you get to be

more hands on, which is pretty cool.

:

00:46:38,172 --> 00:46:41,792

Do you find that the it hurts

you professionally ever?

:

00:46:42,982 --> 00:46:45,412

So I only work from home sometimes.

:

00:46:45,412 --> 00:46:46,652

I do have an office as well.

:

00:46:47,232 --> 00:46:51,962

So I did work a lot from home when

she was a baby, which was quite

:

00:46:51,972 --> 00:46:53,962

interesting and during the pandemic.

:

00:46:54,512 --> 00:46:57,912

So me and my wife had to

kind of figure out ways where

:

00:46:57,912 --> 00:46:59,222

she would go to her parents.

:

00:46:59,232 --> 00:46:59,252

Yeah.

:

00:46:59,692 --> 00:47:01,912

So she would take the baby,

go for a drive, so I can

:

00:47:01,912 --> 00:47:02,962

work from home at the time.

:

00:47:03,302 --> 00:47:04,822

So we did have like that agreement.

:

00:47:05,202 --> 00:47:07,952

But then obviously as she got

older wife comes home early.

:

00:47:07,952 --> 00:47:11,492

So I'm just like, let's get an office

space to kind of, Separate the work

:

00:47:11,492 --> 00:47:15,842

from home and to also have in person

clients too, because there's a lot of

:

00:47:15,842 --> 00:47:18,532

demand for in person because people

are tired of the online therapy.

:

00:47:19,252 --> 00:47:20,762

So I'm just like, okay,

let's bite the bullet.

:

00:47:20,762 --> 00:47:21,962

Get an office space again.

:

00:47:21,962 --> 00:47:23,092

It's down the street from where I live.

:

00:47:23,092 --> 00:47:27,272

So it's it's very convenient and I

can see more people in person because

:

00:47:27,272 --> 00:47:28,102

I'm not going to see them in my home.

:

00:47:28,102 --> 00:47:28,502

Of course.

:

00:47:29,032 --> 00:47:32,372

And when I do want to work from home, I

can have the opportunity because I usually

:

00:47:32,602 --> 00:47:34,132

work from home more for like admin stuff.

:

00:47:34,482 --> 00:47:38,132

So if I'm doing meetings like this if I

have other meetings or other things that I

:

00:47:38,132 --> 00:47:39,782

want to work on, I could do it from home.

:

00:47:40,282 --> 00:47:42,472

But if I have client sessions,

I'll go to the office.

:

00:47:42,982 --> 00:47:44,472

So kind of having that

separation has been good.

:

00:47:45,252 --> 00:47:48,842

But during the The early stage was, it

was quite difficult because again, I

:

00:47:48,902 --> 00:47:52,162

need confidentiality, so I would have

to have my wife wearing headphones.

:

00:47:52,772 --> 00:47:55,952

If the baby's crying, it's like

kind of like mute or something.

:

00:47:55,982 --> 00:47:57,652

So there were those moments.

:

00:47:57,652 --> 00:48:00,742

So we just decided , okay, like gotta be

out of the house or I got to find a space.

:

00:48:01,122 --> 00:48:01,922

So that doesn't happen.

:

00:48:03,232 --> 00:48:05,712

I can imagine that created

some challenges for sure.

:

00:48:06,132 --> 00:48:09,242

Have you thought about how you

guys are going to manage once

:

00:48:09,242 --> 00:48:10,462

your daughter is school age?

:

00:48:10,462 --> 00:48:13,152

Who's going to be responsible for

, getting her there, picking her up?

:

00:48:13,362 --> 00:48:14,382

Is she going to take the bus?

:

00:48:14,382 --> 00:48:16,032

Have you guys had those conversations yet?

:

00:48:16,802 --> 00:48:17,792

We haven't just yet.

:

00:48:17,792 --> 00:48:19,502

Cause we're not sure if we're

going to stay where we're

:

00:48:19,502 --> 00:48:21,052

living, if we're going to move.

:

00:48:21,962 --> 00:48:24,362

She still has like two years

until she starts school.

:

00:48:25,577 --> 00:48:28,427

Sometime then again, we're deciding are

we gonna have a second child or not?

:

00:48:28,477 --> 00:48:29,937

Trying to think of those logistics.

:

00:48:30,607 --> 00:48:33,797

But I would say I would probably drop

her off and then maybe my wife will

:

00:48:33,797 --> 00:48:37,787

pick her up because I started like, I

I'm flexible where I start my schedule.

:

00:48:37,787 --> 00:48:39,697

So I usually like start at 10

o'clock and seeing clients.

:

00:48:40,117 --> 00:48:42,777

So I have the morning to kind of

like either walk the dog take care

:

00:48:42,777 --> 00:48:44,237

of myself, do whatever I need to.

:

00:48:44,377 --> 00:48:46,367

So I, again, I take her to

daycare in the mornings.

:

00:48:46,877 --> 00:48:49,317

And then my wife will sometimes

pick her up or I'll pick her up.

:

00:48:49,317 --> 00:48:49,402

Okay.

:

00:48:49,872 --> 00:48:53,392

So just depending on the circumstances,

what's happening and where she's

:

00:48:53,392 --> 00:48:56,132

going to school to flexibility.

:

00:48:56,182 --> 00:48:57,452

, so crucial these days.

:

00:48:57,452 --> 00:49:02,772

I think for parents, it's so hard to

make all of the pieces and moving parts

:

00:49:02,772 --> 00:49:05,892

work and, so many things to think about.

:

00:49:06,137 --> 00:49:10,237

And then we talk about, , in my work

with Fair Play, talking about mental

:

00:49:10,237 --> 00:49:14,257

load and the invisible work that has

to happen behind the scenes to make,

:

00:49:14,297 --> 00:49:19,257

to, to get the right daycare to, to

understand, homework assignments

:

00:49:19,287 --> 00:49:22,097

and who has what and all this stuff.

:

00:49:22,747 --> 00:49:27,367

And so, yeah, , just thinking about,

so many things as a dad and a mom

:

00:49:27,387 --> 00:49:28,887

and at what you have to do together.

:

00:49:29,567 --> 00:49:30,687

Yeah, there's a lot there.

:

00:49:30,757 --> 00:49:31,967

There's a lot there for sure.

:

00:49:32,017 --> 00:49:36,267

I'm sure Eric you and your wife

kind of have a pretty good idea now.

:

00:49:36,267 --> 00:49:37,647

How do you guys handle all that?

:

00:49:37,687 --> 00:49:42,377

Managing all the load of running the

household and making sure she's taken

:

00:49:42,377 --> 00:49:43,837

care of you work from home too.

:

00:49:43,837 --> 00:49:44,347

I have no idea.

:

00:49:44,427 --> 00:49:44,867

I have no idea.

:

00:49:45,057 --> 00:49:47,997

We're just pretty much, we're just

pretty much surf along the chaos.

:

00:49:49,397 --> 00:49:52,597

, because my job is super flexible, as long

as I make my deadlines it doesn't matter.

:

00:49:53,177 --> 00:49:55,867

Except, unless I get like a voiceover

that needs to be done right away.

:

00:49:56,307 --> 00:50:01,717

But because my job is flexible and

she's a singer, so her job it's

:

00:50:01,717 --> 00:50:05,067

nights usually, sometimes it's

weekends and , it's pretty random.

:

00:50:05,067 --> 00:50:08,697

So sometimes she won't work for two

weeks and then she'll work for like seven

:

00:50:08,697 --> 00:50:11,327

nights in a row, eight nights in a row,

you know, so it gets, it's kind of crazy.

:

00:50:11,677 --> 00:50:14,977

So we just, there's just a lot

of , Hey, who's doing what this week?

:

00:50:15,617 --> 00:50:16,767

That's pretty much it.

:

00:50:16,987 --> 00:50:19,867

And I pretty much just, I just

have to know you know, is she

:

00:50:19,867 --> 00:50:21,087

available or am I doing it?

:

00:50:23,227 --> 00:50:23,547

Yeah.

:

00:50:23,897 --> 00:50:25,217

That's, that's pretty much it.

:

00:50:26,107 --> 00:50:26,277

Yeah.

:

00:50:26,517 --> 00:50:27,067

I'm lucky.

:

00:50:27,492 --> 00:50:29,332

In some regards, because my

wife's an educator, so she

:

00:50:29,332 --> 00:50:30,642

works like eight to three.

:

00:50:30,642 --> 00:50:34,002

So she's usually home when school's

done and she has the summers off.

:

00:50:34,022 --> 00:50:37,672

So , July, August, she's off, so she

has more time to, again, take care of

:

00:50:37,682 --> 00:50:40,962

the house if need be, or spend time with

the daughter, pick her up from daycare

:

00:50:40,962 --> 00:50:42,782

earlier, and kind of do activities.

:

00:50:43,272 --> 00:50:46,582

And again being self employed, I'm

flexible in my schedule, so if I

:

00:50:46,582 --> 00:50:49,752

want to see clients at certain times,

I can do that, or block it off.

:

00:50:50,122 --> 00:50:51,892

So if I have to go pick

her up, I can do that too.

:

00:50:52,812 --> 00:50:53,132

Yeah.

:

00:50:53,802 --> 00:50:54,202

Which is good.

:

00:50:54,202 --> 00:50:55,712

That's why I chose to

become self employed too.

:

00:50:57,022 --> 00:50:57,862

Yeah, for sure.

:

00:50:57,862 --> 00:50:58,962

That's definitely a benefit.

:

00:50:59,212 --> 00:51:00,832

John , last thing before we go.

:

00:51:00,942 --> 00:51:01,082

Yep.

:

00:51:01,867 --> 00:51:10,007

If you had one, , piece of advice to give

to men and dads on, , what they could do

:

00:51:10,767 --> 00:51:15,987

to just feel a little bit less alone, a

little bit less interrupted, let's say,

:

00:51:16,557 --> 00:51:20,617

a little bit more connected, whether

they're single, married, doesn't matter.

:

00:51:20,717 --> 00:51:22,527

What would you say to men and dads?

:

00:51:23,697 --> 00:51:26,507

To just be a little more

connected with themselves.

:

00:51:27,627 --> 00:51:31,017

I probably ask dads, or

sorry, men in general.

:

00:51:31,347 --> 00:51:33,537

When was the last time you did

something to take care of yourself?

:

00:51:34,417 --> 00:51:37,537

Because I think as men, we're always

giving, giving, giving, always doing

:

00:51:37,537 --> 00:51:40,777

so much that we sometimes forget

about ourselves in the process.

:

00:51:41,367 --> 00:51:44,557

And the things that bring us joy,

whether it's like riding a motorcycle,

:

00:51:45,017 --> 00:51:48,657

playing catch, doing whatever, that

brings that joy and fulfillment.

:

00:51:48,877 --> 00:51:50,737

So kind of being able to

play a little bit too.

:

00:51:50,797 --> 00:51:51,827

Like when was the last time you played?

:

00:51:52,832 --> 00:51:54,902

That's a great way to end , this episode.

:

00:51:55,172 --> 00:51:57,812

John, I appreciate your time

and your candor , , and your

:

00:51:57,812 --> 00:51:59,212

openness and willing to share.

:

00:51:59,212 --> 00:52:03,762

And I think a lot of the dads and men,

and, perhaps moms that are listening out

:

00:52:03,762 --> 00:52:06,002

there, hopefully will find some value.

:

00:52:06,002 --> 00:52:09,652

And I always say, You may not resonate

with everything we talked about, but

:

00:52:09,652 --> 00:52:12,492

if there was just a little tidbit here

or a little tidbit there, if you've

:

00:52:12,492 --> 00:52:15,892

got something you want us to talk about

in the future, please let us know.

:

00:52:16,232 --> 00:52:19,902

But again, John, I appreciate you

being so generous with your time

:

00:52:19,902 --> 00:52:21,332

today and sharing your story.

:

00:52:21,902 --> 00:52:24,962

Absolutely appreciate you guys taking

the time to give me this platform to

:

00:52:25,032 --> 00:52:29,392

share and like you said, help one person

take something away from this and get

:

00:52:29,392 --> 00:52:33,362

them on the right path to get support

and not suffering silence at the day.

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About the Podcast

Dads Interrupted
Real Talk on Fatherhood, Relationships, & Growth
What does it mean to be a good man—and a present dad—in a world that never taught you how?
Dads Interrupted is a podcast about fatherhood, masculinity, and the journey to becoming the man your family actually needs. Hosted by men’s coach and dad of 12+ years Fred Van Riper, Dads Interrupted dives deep into the conversations men aren’t having—but desperately need.

We explore what it means to lead with purpose, break free from outdated roles, and build the kind of relationships that change everything—at home, at work, and in your own head.

You’ll hear honest, real-world stories from men navigating fatherhood, marriage, emotional growth, and the myths that hold us back. As a Certified Fair Play Facilitator, Fred offers tools for shared responsibility, emotional leadership, and creating a home that works for everyone.

This isn’t about losing power—it’s about gaining something far greater: Respect. Intimacy. Legacy.

If you’re ready to break the cycle and build something better—this podcast is your starting point.

Support the show here so we can keep bringing you powerful conversations:
https://dads-interrupted.captivate.fm/

Visit https://www.seatatthetablecoaching.com/ for more tools and coaching resources.
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About your host

Profile picture for Frederick Van Riper

Frederick Van Riper

Hi, I'm Fred, a coach, father, and the creator of Seat at the Table Coaching.

I work with men who are doing a lot right on paper…

but still feel like they’re missing at home, stuck in their heads, or showing up as someone they don’t quite recognize.

This pod is where we strip it back.

No lectures. No performance. Just tools, stories, and real conversations to help you lead with more presence—without selling your soul in the process.