Raising Resilient Sons in a World That Undermines Them with Jeff Nelligan

Fred: 00:00:02

Today I am joined by someone who's raised three incredibly

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successful sons think Naval Academy,

west Point Williams College, and he's

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written a book about how he did it.

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Jeff Neligan is a public affairs executive

and army veteran, and an author of the

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book, four Lessons from My Three Sons.

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Jeff, welcome to Dad's Interrupted.

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How are you today?

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Nellie: Hey man, it's great to

be with you, Fred, and it's a

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privilege and a pleasure to be on.

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I know this show just with the guys

that you've spoken with, all of

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whom have some incredible stories.

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That with Tuttle two weeks ago, in

the heartbreak and the strength and

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Stockdale with that great comment.

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How he can, what is his role in the

presence that he's around other people.

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Anyways great stuff and I'm

glad to be a part of it.

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Fred: I appreciate you coming on

sharing your story and your wisdom.

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Raising three boys is no small feat.

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Before we dive into resilience and raising

kids, let's rewind the tape a little bit.

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Take me back to the early

years of fatherhood for you.

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What kind of dad were you

when your boys were young?

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Nellie: I will tell you, I was

like, like my father was, old

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trad, old school and my dad.

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Maybe the word didn't even exist

then, he had a strategy for raising

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the three of us, and just by sheer

inheritance and osmosis, I had the

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same kind of plan for helping to

raise my kids along with their mom.

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And the strategy is key because people

don't really realize this Fred, but

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75% of the time you will spend with

your child is over by the age of 12.

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And by the age of 18, that's 90%.

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So you have to get to those kids early.

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Otherwise the culture will raise them.

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And I don't think there's any

reasonable person listening to this.

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Any dad or mom who thinks the culture

raising their kid is a good idea.

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Fred: There's a lot of

scary stuff out there.

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We definitely don't want the culture

raising our kids in the manosphere,

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with guys like Andrew Tate yeah.

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We don't need that type of energy when we

talk about masculinity, I think there's a

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lot of nuance that goes into that topic.

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And it can feel very confronting

for men . And for me, personally

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I've wrestled with a lot of that.

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And you're an Army vet, so you definitely

have that, like the manliness, right?

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It's be tough, be strong, go

to war, fight for freedom.

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That's really, truly

honorable, man or woman.

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And yet, there's so much

more to being a man.

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It's not just strength

through power and control.

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It's strength through.

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Something that we touched on a

couple episodes ago with Jason

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Tuttle, the strength through

courage to admit that you are weak.

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Yeah.

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Admit that you're struggling and

ask for help in those moments.

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Definitely resonate with that message.

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Did you always parent with a plan or

did these lessons emerge over time?

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Nellie: I always had a plan, and of

course I should say right here that

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their mom, my ex deserves 90% of

the credit for how they turned out.

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I get 10% for being a major

league nag, all the time.

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But together we had a plan and, but

my plan was to just build them in four

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basic categories, personal conduct,

gaining confidence, resilience,

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and adversity, which I think is.

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In virtually every one of the themes

of the men you've talked to and the

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fourth one being developing ambition.

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And that was the whole exact propellant

behind everything that we did and

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the things that I set them up to do.

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And of course, the biggest part, and this

is going back to Tuttle and you're strong

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when you're weak, is failure is good.

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Because it makes you stop and

decide, Hey, I've gotta try something

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different because this isn't working.

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So those were the four themes

and the four themes in the book.

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But I was, you're presented

with opportunities every day,

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every moment in the real world

that's outside the front door.

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And I.

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Took advantage of them

with all three boys.

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Fred: Where did the idea

for the book come from?

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Was that a reflection that you had?

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Was it feedback that your kids gave you?

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Was it something else?

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Nellie: I'll tell you, I drove home

from dropping the last kid off from

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college, and it was West Point, onto the

Manosphere baby, because that's about as

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rugged and masculine as it's gonna get.

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And I drove up and I'm sitting in my

backyard with my victory cigar and a Red

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Bull thinking, now what am I gonna do?

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I have all this time, no more

going to games or school events

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or, taking him around places.

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And I thought, you know what?

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I got three kids out there in the world.

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He's the youngest, he's just starting,

and I'm gonna write about what.

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Pretty much I followed and in the

hope, in a humble hope, a modest

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hope that maybe a few dads might

listen and go, Hey, I'd like kids.

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Similar to that.

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And that's how it began.

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Fred: Now you've raised boy three boys

who are clearly driven and accomplished.

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I imagine the journey wasn't always smooth

especially with your demanding jobs.

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On this show we talk a lot about the

tension between wanting to be a great

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dad and then the reality of work

pulling at us, distracting us sometimes.

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And I say distracting, but

our work is important as well.

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You've worked in Congress, you've

held presidential appointments and

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you had a high pressure public career.

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Was there ever a moment where you felt

like your work life was threatening

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to crowd out your role as a dad?

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Nellie: Yeah, and I think, any dad,

yeah, I had some pretty neat roles

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and I was very, fortunate to get them.

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But hey, a guy that's just, the general

manager of an auto zone, he's got

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the same kind of pressures on him.

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A guy who's HVAC or a guy

who's a insurance executive.

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Every dad has that, that pull on him.

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And I think the two key.

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Elements of handling my jobs at the

time were, and this is just mechanics,

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doing a lot of stuff early in the

morning and doing a lot of stuff

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late at night and planning the day.

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So that those things you could do

at those periods of times you kept

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there and the rest of the time you

could for example, drive from Capitol

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Hill to, land in school 25 miles away

at four o'clock in the afternoon.

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Watch a lacrosse game where your

kid sits on the bench and drive

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back and continue the work.

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So I think those ideas, as I say, the

mechanics of early morning, late night

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for the stuff that could be done and

then filling in the day with whatever

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the kid or kids, in my instance,

all three of them playing sports,

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three seasons every year required,

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Fred: looking back on that.

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Time when you were more active,

'cause now your kids are grown what

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do you wish you had done differently?

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Or maybe what are you proud

that you held the line on?

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Nellie: Wow.

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You always want to do

something differently.

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Like I said earlier that's part of

your breaking the cycle, because the

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cycle, even if it's pretty good, it's

not perfect and it maybe never will be.

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I, maybe I should have taken

my foot off the gas sometimes.

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On the kids.

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Although even if I had, they still would

do be doing what they're doing now.

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All three are military officers.

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And I guess I wish I wouldn't have

been so nervous about their futures.

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It was always a low grade anxiety

about, Hey, this game or this

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test, or, this tournament we're

gonna be in, in at Princeton or in.

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Boston, you gotta perform.

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Man, there's a lot of coaches watching.

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I wish I would've laid off the gas.

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Fred: You did mention in some of

the questions I asked prior to

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you coming on and I think it's

something every dad can relate to.

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You said , had a fear of becoming a nag.

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Yeah.

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That balance between pushing

your kids without killing their

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internal drive is really difficult.

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You've said this was

your biggest struggle.

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How did you encourage excellence

without making it feel like pressure?

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Nellie: Wow.

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Boy, that's a really, you're

threading the needle on that question.

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I was blessed to have they were blessed

as well to have a wonderful mom.

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And she was a great check and she was a

great model and she was also inspiration.

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And so they really, they learned

probably more from her than me.

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But I, boy not, nine years old.

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You're turning the corner there on

a lot of stuff, and it's tough to.

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Push 'em too hard and then not

push enough, put the hammer down

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and then release it, off of them.

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I, but at the same time,

such an opportunity.

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. Fred: Was there ever a moment where

one of your kids pushed back on you or

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told you that you were going too far?

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Nellie: Oh, yeah.

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Plenty of times.

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Fred: I figured that was the

answer, but I just had to ask

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Nellie: you.

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No.

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Perfect.

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Fathering here, man.

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Yeah.

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And in fact, I wrote about it in the book.

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One instance, I was nagging the kid who

was in 10th grade, who's the eldest.

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I'm going, Hey man, you ought

run for student body president.

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Gonna look good on your record.

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You know a lot of guys you're

totally good on your feet.

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And I kept nagging him and he

kept just demurring, yeah, dad.

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Yeah, dad.

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So finally I just said, man, you gotta.

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You gotta really run for office.

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And he looked at me and he used

this phrase we always used to use

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about a kid on one of our lacrosse

teams, who was the greatest player

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that they had ever played with.

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He was an all American in college

and always at the end of a game, it

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was always get the ball to Louis.

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'cause Louis was the only

chance he had to score.

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And my point with saying that to him

was, know your place in the world, on the

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field, wherever, know where you fit in.

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And so he's looking at me as I'm

nagging him, and he goes, Hey dad,

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I'm getting the ball to Louie.

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IEI know exactly what

I'm doing and you don't.

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And I just backed off

and said, you know what?

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You're right.

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So yeah I mean there's a lot of times

there's a lot of self-deprecation in the

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book because no dad lives it perfectly,

like telling about the time I got fired

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from a job or driving around big cities

full of buildings where you see, 20,

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30 stories just block after block.

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And you're going, oh man,

this is so depressing.

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This is the modern age.

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And then you pointing to one as all

three are in the car, on the seventh

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floor up there is a guy sitting

at a desk with a coffee mug like

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you made me in second grade and a

picture of his family on his desk.

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And he's staring at his screen.

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And this guy was gonna be

somebody, he was a big shot at

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Landon School and he was going to.

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Be a jet pilot or run a string

of restaurants or be in real

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estate or sail around the world.

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Instead, he's looking at the

screen and he's saying to himself,

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what the hell am I doing here?

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And I said, guys, that guy is your dad and

you have got to get farther than I have.

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So that, and they're in

shock listening to that.

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But that's the kind of thing a

dad has to yank out at sometimes

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that, Hey man, it goes back to

Tuttle, my weakness is my strength.

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You guys can do better.

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Fred: And some of the men I coach, I

teach the four tee's of communication,

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timing, tone, technique, and truth.

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And I can't take credit for that.

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I don't honestly know who began the

four tee's of communication but I

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found it somewhere and I loved it.

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And I think it's really helpful to break

down communication . It's a model, it's

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a framework that I can rely on and see

where maybe I made a mistake when I

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revisit a conversation that didn't go

so well with my wife or with my kids.

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Yeah.

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Speaking of the military did your

military background shape how you handled

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tone, how you handled discipline, how

you handled structure in your home?

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Nellie: Yeah, it did.

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I was in the Army Reserves for 14 years,

but before that I had been on a lot of

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athletic teams, which is just a natural

corollary to being in the service.

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And at the same time I was in

politics, which is a very rigid

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structure, because in politics, every

day you win or losing you're closing

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the deal or you're walking away.

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That discipline and that structure,

from early on, from being on teams and

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indeed the three kids, the reason all

three were in the military, one Naval

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Academy, one West Point, the other

guy Williams, who went to OCS right

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afterwards, is that environment of being

on a team brings out, and, you as a, fair

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play coach, you might recognize these.

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Number one is, it's.

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You have to get along with a lot

of people on a team camaraderie,

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some of whom you don't even like.

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But it's all for the team, and it's

all real every day at practice.

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The second thing is you're gonna be

sitting on, your fanny's gonna be on

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a bench unless you put the personal

discipline in to get better at the sport.

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And the third thing is, which is

great about sports, it's great

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about the military politics.

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At the end of every day

there's a scoreboard and

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there's a winner and a loser.

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And if you get too

complacent, being the loser.

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You've got a problem.

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So those three aspects of sports

and they all played in college were

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essential to, and they played in

high school at a pretty good level.

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Not a high level, good level.

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By the time they got to go into college

and everything else, the military

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was a natural fit because again,

it had the masculinity, that was

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the word you used at the beginning.

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But it also had that structure and

camaraderie that you were just noting.

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Fred: the idea of winning and losing

is always a such a nuanced topic too,

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? Because it's oh yeah.

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It's like how do you define it?

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, What actually matters?

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And so I think sports are a great

way, especially team sports.

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There's such a great way to build

resilience and build character

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and build discipline because.

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, To your excellent points.

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Personal discipline to get better

at the sport or else you're gonna

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be sitting on the bench, right?

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Yeah.

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No.

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And that's not fun.

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I sat on the bench my entire freshman

year playing high school baseball.

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I made the JV team.

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I sat on the bench the entire year.

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I think maybe I got pin, I

pinched hit once or something.

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But it wasn't fun.

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It wasn't fun, it wasn't a fun time.

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Yeah.

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And it was a wake up call for me.

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Because I had been one of the better

players throughout the local yeah,

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recreational leagues before high school,

and now I'm on a junior varsity team.

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I'm a freshman, I'm small.

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And it's like why is he not playing me?

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I know I'm good, I'm confident.

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But he's not letting me show

him, and how do I do that?

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So it's really a great way to

learn some lessons in life.

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But winning the game, right?

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One game or even the championship, right?

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Versus.

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How are you conducting yourself on a

day-to-day basis with your team, and

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how do you conduct yourself when you

lose a game or lose a championship?

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Exactly right.

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Yeah, like that, winning is I agree

with some of the parents when they

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talk about it's not all about winning.

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And I also agree with some of

the parents who are like, really

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win or don't win winning's.

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What?

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What matters?

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I think there's something in

the middle there where it's

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yeah, like winning's great.

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Winning's fun, right?

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And if we wanna be a

good coach, we gotta win.

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But winning a game when you're,

10, 12, 15, 18 versus winning at

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life, winning in your relationships,

winning in your career.

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That's really what I'm interested

in, and I'm not saying anything

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wrong about winning a championship.

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It's awesome.

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Yeah.

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But you also gotta win in other places.

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There's a lot of areas of life

where we're looking at some wins.

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I love your mantra that you live

by it's related to the military

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background, assess, adapt, advance.

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Yeah.

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Let's talk about how that

plays out in parenting you.

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Where did that phrase come from

and how did you use it as a dad?

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Nellie: It came from old drill Sergeant

Har Harrison, a big black, bold badass

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at Fort Benning at infantry school, and

he would always just pound that into us.

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And he was one of the most remarkable

men I've ever met in my life.

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He was just, that whole

platoon would follow him over

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a cliff and not even blink.

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That's the kinda leadership and

presence he instilled in guys.

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But I love that.

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And hearing it, as a young guy

at infantry training at Benning.

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: 00:16:00

It just seemed to be that's the

way you should approach life.

313

: 00:16:03

And so one of the gr one of the things I

did that's maybe counterintuitive to being

314

: 00:16:07

a good dad is I always love to see my kid

in tight situations, all three of them.

315

: 00:16:13

And sometimes I put them in them

deliberately to see how they'd react.

316

: 00:16:18

Because once you get over one

bad situation, you get the,

317

: 00:16:24

you get the confidence for

the next one and the next one.

318

: 00:16:26

And you and I are, we're adult men, man.

319

: 00:16:29

No one gets a free ride every

day is a scene of some sort.

320

: 00:16:34

So early on I would give them tests

like we're standing in an outdoor, in

321

: 00:16:38

an indoor mall Saturday, it's packed

in DC and I just wa whip out my wallet

322

: 00:16:44

and say to all three of them, Hey,

here's a $5 bill each go get me change.

323

: 00:16:48

It's not a race, but don't come back here

unless you have change for each five.

324

: 00:16:52

And off they went.

325

: 00:16:53

They were delighted.

326

: 00:16:54

And one kid had to go into a couple

stores, another kid came back with.

327

: 00:16:58

20 quarters in his pocket, but they

all came back and they were delighted

328

: 00:17:02

to test setting him in this new arena.

329

: 00:17:05

Yeah.

330

: 00:17:05

Now, today, someone would

say you've gotta keep an eye.

331

: 00:17:08

No.

332

: 00:17:09

The real world is not

gonna treat 'em that way.

333

: 00:17:11

When they're 13 or they're 23, let 'em go.

334

: 00:17:14

I'll take the risk in order

to teach 'em a lesson.

335

: 00:17:18

So if you just give 'em tests

like that continually, and

336

: 00:17:20

these, of course, advanced.

337

: 00:17:22

We're at an airport and I give the

7-year-old all the paperwork and I

338

: 00:17:25

say, go get us five boarding passes.

339

: 00:17:27

We'll be right here.

340

: 00:17:29

And a kid goes, figure it out, man.

341

: 00:17:31

You know this, there's no coming,

there's no whining, no coming back.

342

: 00:17:34

So those kind of tests, as harsh as

they sound, build in a kid, that kind

343

: 00:17:40

of resilience so that, that 5-year-old

in the mall, in the middle of DC in, in,

344

: 00:17:46

with 3000 people around him to get change.

345

: 00:17:49

Is the 24-year-old on the bridge of

a guided missile destroyer in the

346

: 00:17:54

Persian Gulf at night when Iranian

patrol boats and mines all around

347

: 00:17:59

them, and he's the guy they choose

because they know he's a lieutenant

348

: 00:18:03

who's gonna make the right decision.

349

: 00:18:04

So that reaction to adversity,

it builds muscle memory early,

350

: 00:18:09

and then kids never lose it.

351

: 00:18:11

. Fred: I like to think about

resilience a little bit differently

352

: 00:18:13

because I agree with you.

353

: 00:18:14

I think it's important , to build it.

354

: 00:18:15

And I love those examples,

although I will, I agree.

355

: 00:18:18

This is a little scary

world that we live in now.

356

: 00:18:20

I know.

357

: 00:18:21

But when I was a kid, I

was outside all the time.

358

: 00:18:23

I was, in the woods.

359

: 00:18:24

I was, off and running.

360

: 00:18:25

I remember one time in particular,

we had a highway right behind

361

: 00:18:29

our house the Taconic State

Parkway, if someone's listening

362

: 00:18:31

from New York if you're familiar.

363

: 00:18:33

Yeah.

364

: 00:18:34

And it was, not even a quarter

mile from behind my house.

365

: 00:18:38

And so we were in the woods, right behind

our house, right next to the Taconic.

366

: 00:18:42

E all the time.

367

: 00:18:44

Anytime the weather was

good, we were out there.

368

: 00:18:46

I remember one day A, a car stopped.

369

: 00:18:49

Me and my brother Brian were in the woods

kind of playing goofing around whatever

370

: 00:18:53

we were doing, looking for bugs or

animals or whatever, and a car stopped and

371

: 00:18:58

the guy got out of the truck

and starts approaching us.

372

: 00:19:01

Now our instincts, of course.

373

: 00:19:04

Worse was to get the F out of there, yeah.

374

: 00:19:06

So we did, so we ran back to our

house and told our parents, and by

375

: 00:19:10

the time they came out, he was gone.

376

: 00:19:11

Long gone.

377

: 00:19:12

I don't know what his mission was there.

378

: 00:19:14

I don't know if he was trying to

do something nefarious or not.

379

: 00:19:17

But the point being, to your

point, it's yes, let your kids.

380

: 00:19:20

And experience some of those kind

of challenges and make decisions.

381

: 00:19:25

But the one thing about resilience that

I guess I want to add is I don't think

382

: 00:19:29

it's a muscle that you build one time

and then you can flex it, I believe.

383

: 00:19:34

Oh, no.

384

: 00:19:34

I believe it's something

that you have to work on.

385

: 00:19:36

Yeah.

386

: 00:19:37

All the time and continue to

practice it because you can lose it.

387

: 00:19:41

It's the way I look at, like

all the work I do is fitness.

388

: 00:19:45

We talk about physical fitness with men

a lot because that's again, the more

389

: 00:19:49

manly, masculine type of idea of fitness.

390

: 00:19:52

Yeah.

391

: 00:19:53

Fred: But my work is relationship fitness.

392

: 00:19:54

My work is emotional fitness.

393

: 00:19:56

Is the way I look at it.

394

: 00:19:57

And with any sort of fitness you have

to, if you wanna build muscle, you

395

: 00:20:00

gotta go to the gym multiple times.

396

: 00:20:03

You gotta push against resistance.

397

: 00:20:05

And it's the same thing for

building solid relationships,

398

: 00:20:08

building emotional architecture.

399

: 00:20:10

You need to practice all of this.

400

: 00:20:14

Daily.

401

: 00:20:15

And if, or every other day.

402

: 00:20:16

It's not something you do one

time and then you're done.

403

: 00:20:19

And I think a lot of men and a lot

of women in relationships they just,

404

: 00:20:22

it's almost like you get married, you

take it for granted, or you become

405

: 00:20:25

a parent and then you're supposed

to have all these answers, right?

406

: 00:20:28

And if you're not, then you're failing

and you feel bad and you feel shame.

407

: 00:20:31

And, or same with relationships.

408

: 00:20:32

You mess up and now you feel

shame about it and it's look, you.

409

: 00:20:35

Need to build some resilience, you

need to realize, you don't have

410

: 00:20:38

all the answers and that's okay.

411

: 00:20:40

Yeah.

412

: 00:20:40

So how do you build resilience?

413

: 00:20:42

You do the hard thing and then

you do it the next day, and then

414

: 00:20:45

you do it again the next day.

415

: 00:20:46

And you keep doing that hard

thing and it becomes easier.

416

: 00:20:49

And so we want things to be easy,

but we don't wanna do the work.

417

: 00:20:53

We don't wanna do the

work to make them easy.

418

: 00:20:54

Oh yeah.

419

: 00:20:55

I just, I agree with, anyone listening

I think understand that like you're not.

420

: 00:21:01

You're not wrong, bad.

421

: 00:21:04

You shouldn't feel shame around not

having answers in your relationships

422

: 00:21:07

as a father, as a husband as a friend.

423

: 00:21:10

It's just if you mess up, own it, right?

424

: 00:21:13

Yeah.

425

: 00:21:14

And then do better.

426

: 00:21:15

Like, how do I do better?

427

: 00:21:16

Read a book.

428

: 00:21:16

Listen to a podcast.

429

: 00:21:18

Have a hard conversation.

430

: 00:21:19

Do those hard things.

431

: 00:21:20

Build that resilience, but

don't just do it one time.

432

: 00:21:23

Nellie: No,

433

: 00:21:24

Fred: keep doing it.

434

: 00:21:25

. Nellie: That's exactly it, and

that's why I kind of preface this

435

: 00:21:26

by saying, we're adults, men, we

know, no one gets a free ride.

436

: 00:21:31

Everyone gets hit with

some scene every day.

437

: 00:21:34

And if you can continue to, handle

those scenes like my kids, I.

438

: 00:21:38

Kids get hit with scenes every

day or every couple days.

439

: 00:21:42

If you can just build to just

attack the problem and say, look,

440

: 00:21:46

just get 80% down the field.

441

: 00:21:48

You don't have to solve

the whole damn thing.

442

: 00:21:50

80% is enough.

443

: 00:21:52

Move the chains.

444

: 00:21:54

And you'll get there and

you're exactly right.

445

: 00:21:56

People do it one time and or with physical

exercise as well as you call emotional

446

: 00:22:02

exercise or emotional architecture.

447

: 00:22:05

They do it one time.

448

: 00:22:06

Maybe that's why 72% of the people in

this country are overweight or obese.

449

: 00:22:10

One time is never enough for

your body or for your mind.

450

: 00:22:14

Yeah.

451

: 00:22:15

Fred: And this isn't taking away

from the truth that it is difficult.

452

: 00:22:19

It's very difficult for sure.

453

: 00:22:21

So that, so I get the struggle.

454

: 00:22:22

I struggle.

455

: 00:22:23

It's not, I'm not preaching

to say I have all the answers.

456

: 00:22:26

I'm saying, I've lived

this, I know how hard it is.

457

: 00:22:29

And I still struggle

even as a coach for men.

458

: 00:22:31

I have a wife, I'm a dad.

459

: 00:22:33

I don't do everything perfectly.

460

: 00:22:35

Just like you said in the

beginning, we are going to mess up.

461

: 00:22:38

We don't know everything.

462

: 00:22:39

And sometimes we think we know

we do it and then we realize,

463

: 00:22:42

Ooh, that wasn't the best thing.

464

: 00:22:43

Maybe I should walk that back.

465

: 00:22:45

And I think owning mistakes in front of

your kids and modeling that to them is

466

: 00:22:50

so important to say Hey, you know what?

467

: 00:22:52

Yesterday or earlier today when I.

468

: 00:22:54

Said this, did that, whatever,

I shouldn't have done that.

469

: 00:22:57

I realize now I thought about it,

that was the wrong thing to say.

470

: 00:22:59

That was the wrong thing to do and

I wish I had approached it this way.

471

: 00:23:03

There's so much value in showing kids

that it's okay to mess up, it's okay

472

: 00:23:08

to make mistakes and you will mess up.

473

: 00:23:11

Own the mistake and then get up and

keep going and do better the next time.

474

: 00:23:16

And if you don't do better the next

time, don't sit in the shame in the muck.

475

: 00:23:20

Yeah.

476

: 00:23:20

Fred: You can feel that if that's how

you feel in a moment, but shed it and

477

: 00:23:24

keep going because your kids need you.

478

: 00:23:26

Your partner needs you, your

friends need you, you need you.

479

: 00:23:29

And so it's yeah, I feel

all of that all the time.

480

: 00:23:33

You mentioned your heritage,

you have a Maori ancestry.

481

: 00:23:37

Yes.

482

: 00:23:38

I'm curious how that identity shaped

the values that you passed on.

483

: 00:23:43

Nellie: Sure.

484

: 00:23:43

My great-grandmother was from New Zealand

and she came here she was a no ma, she

485

: 00:23:49

was a hard charger and she wanted out of

New Zealand just to see something new.

486

: 00:23:53

Came to the United States

gosh, way back in: 1904

487

: 00:23:59

She was a, the matriarch of the family.

488

: 00:24:01

And my mom, she was on my mom's side.

489

: 00:24:04

My mom and grandmother were the same way.

490

: 00:24:07

So that was part of, the Maori

heritage, the Polynesian heritage

491

: 00:24:12

is one of, stoicism and toughness.

492

: 00:24:16

And actually my all three kids

have a Malory Middle name as in

493

: 00:24:21

addition to another middle name.

494

: 00:24:24

And the youngest kid, the guy who went

to West Point, he actually now plays

495

: 00:24:27

Pro Rugby, but he went full Polynesian

and he taught himself Mallory and

496

: 00:24:34

his name, his middle name is Coy.

497

: 00:24:36

And he plays for the DC Old

Glory major League rugby team.

498

: 00:24:40

And he looks Mallory, my gosh, he,

so that heritage was a big deal.

499

: 00:24:46

My mom really pounded it home to us.

500

: 00:24:48

And there was very good aspects of it.

501

: 00:24:50

And they resonate with some

of the themes in the book.

502

: 00:24:54

Yeah.

503

: 00:24:54

Fred: Let's shift gears

to lightning round here.

504

: 00:24:57

Sure.

505

: 00:24:57

Nellie: Lightning round.

506

: 00:24:58

Yeah, babe.

507

: 00:24:58

Fred: Yeah.

508

: 00:24:58

Quick fire.

509

: 00:24:59

Lightning round here.

510

: 00:25:00

What's one thing you're

still learning as a dad?

511

: 00:25:05

Nellie: Patience.

512

: 00:25:09

Fred: What's the hardest

stage of being a dad?

513

: 00:25:13

Toddlers.

514

: 00:25:14

Teens.

515

: 00:25:14

20 something.

516

: 00:25:15

Somewhere in between

517

: 00:25:17

Nellie: teens.

518

: 00:25:18

12, 10, 11, 13.

519

: 00:25:21

You've got to get that kid on the

right road or at 24, that kid's living

520

: 00:25:27

in your basement playing Minecraft.

521

: 00:25:29

Fred: I'm sure your book touches

on this, but what's something

522

: 00:25:32

that your son's taught you?

523

: 00:25:35

Nellie: Patience again.

524

: 00:25:37

It's funny.

525

: 00:25:38

I never learned it.

526

: 00:25:39

I'm always gonna be learning.

527

: 00:25:40

It's no joke.

528

: 00:25:41

No kidding.

529

: 00:25:42

Fred: Yeah.

530

: 00:25:43

I'm right there with you.

531

: 00:25:44

It's a hard one.

532

: 00:25:46

What is your best dad fail moment

that you can laugh about now?

533

: 00:25:52

Nellie: Telling my kids he should run

for student body president in 10th

534

: 00:25:55

grade and then being told no way.

535

: 00:25:58

And me just going, he's

right and I'm wrong.

536

: 00:26:02

Fred: I wanna talk more about emotional

resilience right now because we are, as

537

: 00:26:07

a culture, are at a, an interesting shift

in the culture where there's a very big

538

: 00:26:13

push from the manosphere of toughen up,

get tough, be resilient in that angle.

539

: 00:26:20

And then I'm on the other side.

540

: 00:26:23

Of it where I say, yeah toughen up by

becoming emotionally resilient and getting

541

: 00:26:28

in touch with your feelings and being able

to talk about how you feel and how, and

542

: 00:26:32

your emotions in a way that's productive.

543

: 00:26:35

Not in a way that's weak, but in

a way that says you're honoring

544

: 00:26:38

how you're human first, right?

545

: 00:26:39

You're not man, first, you're human.

546

: 00:26:41

And so anger is an emotion that

men are very familiar with and are.

547

: 00:26:46

Culturally allowed to feel, but then

sadness or, disappointment or any of

548

: 00:26:53

the quote unquote negative emotions.

549

: 00:26:55

I.

550

: 00:26:57

Yeah, it is more push it down, suppress

it, don't talk about it, don't admit it.

551

: 00:27:01

And I don't think that's healthy.

552

: 00:27:03

I think building emotional

resilience is healthy.

553

: 00:27:06

And when I speak of emotional resilience,

that is what I'm talking about.

554

: 00:27:10

How do you honor the spectrum

of emotions that you feel as a

555

: 00:27:13

human being without, living in.

556

: 00:27:17

Guilt and shame and all of the

negative feelings that could persist.

557

: 00:27:22

, And I think the healthiest way

to do that is to talk about it,

558

: 00:27:25

is to admit that you have those,

and if you need help, get help.

559

: 00:27:28

If you need to go to therapy,

I think that's great.

560

: 00:27:30

Go to therapy.

561

: 00:27:31

Yeah.

562

: 00:27:31

If you need a coach, get a coach.

563

: 00:27:34

Did you ever come across that?

564

: 00:27:35

I know , you've raised your boys already

and I know back, when you were raising

565

: 00:27:39

them, some of that information wasn't

really that common, wasn't really that

566

: 00:27:42

prevalent, wasn't talked about that much.

567

: 00:27:44

Did you ever talk to them about

feelings and emotions and talking

568

: 00:27:48

about how they feel and being able

to almost like, Hey, dad's a safe

569

: 00:27:53

space to come to to tell, anything.

570

: 00:27:56

Nellie: Yeah.

571

: 00:27:57

Yeah, I did.

572

: 00:27:58

And you're right about the period of

time when I was raising him versus now

573

: 00:28:02

the focus on the man and it's funny

'cause you began the conver we began

574

: 00:28:06

the conversation with masculinity,

which, I buy into a hundred percent.

575

: 00:28:11

I was, had a rugged life and

ups and downs and failures.

576

: 00:28:16

And the service and

politics and playing sports.

577

: 00:28:20

My kids have had the same thing.

578

: 00:28:21

Only they've all, they've lived

it in 29 years rather than, 60.

579

: 00:28:25

But yeah, there was a point, and it's at

the end of the book, believe it or not.

580

: 00:28:30

I, God, it was, I'm almost

channeling Frederick here, man.

581

: 00:28:34

I would take them each kid

once a week and rotate.

582

: 00:28:39

Take 'em down to the high school

bleachers on a Saturday at eight

583

: 00:28:43

o'clock in the morning, and it was,

Saturday morning, bleacher time.

584

: 00:28:47

That's what it was called.

585

: 00:28:48

Bleacher time.

586

: 00:28:50

And we'd just sit in the bleachers.

587

: 00:28:51

Most peaceful place on the planet

is a high school football field

588

: 00:28:55

on the Saturday morning, and

we'd sit a couple bleaches apart.

589

: 00:28:58

Sometimes we'd bring donuts.

590

: 00:29:00

I'd say, okay, what was the week

like, man, tell the old man,

591

: 00:29:03

I'll tell you my ups and downs.

592

: 00:29:05

You tell me yours.

593

: 00:29:07

And we just talk and maybe go on for

half an hour or two or an hour and

594

: 00:29:14

then we go home and every kid got that.

595

: 00:29:16

And that was a schedule.

596

: 00:29:18

And some, the one of the kids came home

from a deployment, the far east, who was

597

: 00:29:23

on a guided, a missile recruit, got a

missile destroyer and the guy's 26 years

598

: 00:29:29

old and we're sitting in the bleachers.

599

: 00:29:31

Same damn bleachers.

600

: 00:29:33

Same place, same Saturday morning, and

I go, so tell me what you've been doing

601

: 00:29:37

for the last freaking 11 months, baby.

602

: 00:29:40

And then I tell him what I've been doing.

603

: 00:29:42

It was the same when

he was five years old.

604

: 00:29:45

Yeah, I've, I had that time.

605

: 00:29:46

I didn't recognize it as, eloquently

as you explained it earlier, but

606

: 00:29:51

that was key and it was regular.

607

: 00:29:54

Fred: Wow.

608

: 00:29:56

That is amazing.

609

: 00:29:57

I love that so much I work with

dads mainly sometimes couples, but

610

: 00:30:02

we talk about connection points.

611

: 00:30:04

Yeah.

612

: 00:30:04

And.

613

: 00:30:05

And I think it's so important to have

scheduled connection points because, yeah.

614

: 00:30:11

Because we can get so distracted by life.

615

: 00:30:14

We get so distracted by parenting,

by work, by, all the things, right?

616

: 00:30:18

So many distractions

in our day-to-day life.

617

: 00:30:22

If we don't schedule certain

things, they won't happen.

618

: 00:30:25

And I love that you had that

regular routine with your boys.

619

: 00:30:28

Yeah.

620

: 00:30:28

Especially from a dad to a son.

621

: 00:30:30

That's so lovely.

622

: 00:30:32

Talk to me about anything

because I'm your dad.

623

: 00:30:34

I'm a safe space.

624

: 00:30:36

And as they grew up, I'm sure they

felt like they could come to you

625

: 00:30:40

if they really were struggling with

something more serious to say Hey,

626

: 00:30:43

struggle in a relationship, struggle

in a job situation, building that

627

: 00:30:48

safety and that trust is so important.

628

: 00:30:51

Yeah.

629

: 00:30:51

Fred: It's one of the most crucial

things that a parent can do for

630

: 00:30:54

their kids is to say, you know what,

no matter what you say, no matter

631

: 00:30:59

what you do I'm here to listen.

632

: 00:31:02

I'm not always gonna agree with you.

633

: 00:31:04

I might not always, be excited

about what you're telling me.

634

: 00:31:07

Yeah.

635

: 00:31:08

But I want you to know

you can tell me anything.

636

: 00:31:10

Because if they can't tell you,

who are they gonna talk to?

637

: 00:31:13

Nellie: And it wasn't.

638

: 00:31:15

I guess what I was doing is, I say

it's in the book, the last chapter.

639

: 00:31:18

But it wasn't, I didn't put the

cast or the eloquent terms around

640

: 00:31:22

it that you had spoken of earlier.

641

: 00:31:24

It was just, Hey man, we

need to know, gimme the good,

642

: 00:31:27

the bad, what was the weak.

643

: 00:31:28

And I'll tell you my bad.

644

: 00:31:29

Yeah.

645

: 00:31:29

I got fired.

646

: 00:31:30

How about that?

647

: 00:31:31

How can you beat that?

648

: 00:31:32

Please, hopefully not,

but they will come back.

649

: 00:31:37

There's plenty of times.

650

: 00:31:38

My sons have called me or showed up

and said, Hey, I got this question

651

: 00:31:42

about my, my major in college.

652

: 00:31:45

What do you think?

653

: 00:31:46

And I would say, yeah, I

tell you what you should do.

654

: 00:31:49

Mr.

655

: 00:31:50

Know it all.

656

: 00:31:51

I said, but obviously you gotta

ask your mom because she's right

657

: 00:31:55

a hundred percent of the time.

658

: 00:31:56

I'm only right about 95.

659

: 00:31:58

But those are some big decisions.

660

: 00:32:00

Like Dad, I'm gonna.

661

: 00:32:01

I have these three ships I can go to,

or I have these three ports all over

662

: 00:32:05

the world, which one should I choose?

663

: 00:32:08

And I give 'em, I give 'em advice

and I'd say this is what I would do.

664

: 00:32:12

But ask your mom and ask a bunch of

guys that are peers that you respect.

665

: 00:32:17

But so yeah.

666

: 00:32:18

Kids at five sitting on a bleachers

will come to you at 25 saying, Hey, do

667

: 00:32:23

I go to Tokyo or do I go to Brussels?

668

: 00:32:26

That's what's gonna happen.

669

: 00:32:27

Fred: It's really brilliant, Jeff,

because I think that's the best thing

670

: 00:32:29

you did for your kids, honestly.

671

: 00:32:31

I don't know all the things

you did for your kids, but,

672

: 00:32:32

that one ritual that you had

673

: 00:32:34

Yeah.

674

: 00:32:35

Fred: Is, bleacher time.

675

: 00:32:36

That's, that is really admirable.

676

: 00:32:39

Love that so much.

677

: 00:32:40

I'm taking that from you.

678

: 00:32:41

I'm gonna use it because you got it, man.

679

: 00:32:44

This is one of my favorite things from

hosting these conversations is learning.

680

: 00:32:49

New things that I hadn't thought of.

681

: 00:32:50

Yeah.

682

: 00:32:51

Seriously, that's so good.

683

: 00:32:52

All right, we gotta wrap up.

684

: 00:32:54

I guess in wrapping up, you've been a

guest on over 80 shows but this show is

685

: 00:32:59

for dads in the Trenches, for men trying

to do it differently, to be more present,

686

: 00:33:04

to get it right where it matters most.

687

: 00:33:06

What would you say to the dad listening

who feels like he's falling short today?

688

: 00:33:13

Nellie: I'm gonna take the

words from a wise coach.

689

: 00:33:16

I'm gonna say break the

cycle today and start anew.

690

: 00:33:18

How about that?

691

: 00:33:19

And I'll tell you, here's

three actionable items.

692

: 00:33:21

You could start with Dad.

693

: 00:33:22

Number one, you take your kid for

a walk tonight after dinner for at

694

: 00:33:29

least half an hour, and over the next

couple weeks, you stretch it to 45

695

: 00:33:32

and then an hour just you and him, no

electronics, just you and him or her.

696

: 00:33:38

And you just talk and

you do it every night.

697

: 00:33:41

That's your routine.

698

: 00:33:42

That's your, that's the order from

drill Sergeant Neligan number two.

699

: 00:33:47

You grab that kid's devices and you

say, there's gonna be a whole new

700

: 00:33:52

scene around here, junior, and you

have and develop, and they're on my

701

: 00:33:56

website, a social media contract.

702

: 00:33:59

You're getting one hour a day and

so is your old man and your mom.

703

: 00:34:04

And we're not turning it on in a car.

704

: 00:34:06

We're not turning it on at a dinner table

and the router's going off at seven 30.

705

: 00:34:12

You start a whole new, the

digital, I would say addiction

706

: 00:34:17

has, is consuming our youth.

707

: 00:34:20

The third thing I would do is start easy

and you start tonight, I don't care what

708

: 00:34:24

kid age your kid is, you get a book and

you say, we're gonna read for 15 minutes.

709

: 00:34:30

You and I'm gonna read out

loud to you if you're young.

710

: 00:34:32

And if you're older, you're gonna

sit next to me and I'm gonna read

711

: 00:34:34

a book and you're gonna read a book

and you're gonna sit there for 15.

712

: 00:34:37

Again, like the walking, you

extend it, keep extending it.

713

: 00:34:41

Three easy things to do, three things

you could start, in four hours.

714

: 00:34:47

Last is get that strategy going.

715

: 00:34:49

My strategy is easy.

716

: 00:34:50

It's in the book.

717

: 00:34:51

It's a simple man, simple strategy.

718

: 00:34:54

Four things you're gonna learn,

and I'm gonna give you tests every

719

: 00:34:57

time I can in the real world.

720

: 00:34:59

That's what I would tell a dad right now.

721

: 00:35:01

I

722

: 00:35:01

Fred: love it.

723

: 00:35:02

So good.

724

: 00:35:03

Where can they find your book?

725

: 00:35:04

Where can they find more about you, Jeff?

726

: 00:35:06

Tell the listeners.

727

: 00:35:07

Nellie: You bet Fred.

728

: 00:35:08

And thanks for giving me

this opportunity to do this.

729

: 00:35:10

My book is available as well as my

blogs and podcasts@www.nganbooks.com.

730

: 00:35:17

I also have a Facebook

page Jeff Neligan books.

731

: 00:35:21

I'm on Exit at Resilience Sons

and on Instagram at neligan books.

732

: 00:35:26

Fred: Let's go.

733

: 00:35:27

Love it.

734

: 00:35:28

I'm gonna, , but I'll have all that

in the liner notes of the show.

735

: 00:35:31

So if anyone's listening and driving and

they can't, write it down, just check

736

: 00:35:35

out the notes of the show and we'll have

all of Jeff's links up there so you can

737

: 00:35:39

find him and buy his book and, start

to show up a little bit more present.

738

: 00:35:43

And I'm sure there's some ideas in the

book that we didn't speak about, so

739

: 00:35:48

Yeah, definitely check that out, Jeff.

740

: 00:35:51

Thank you so much for coming on

sharing, about an hour with me today.

741

: 00:35:54

I appreciate your time, of

course, and your wisdom.

742

: 00:35:57

And I'd love, bleacher

time is where I'm going.

743

: 00:35:59

That's where I'm going this weekend.

744

: 00:36:02

All right, we'll talk soon.

745

: 00:36:03

Nellie: Hey, thanks Fred.

746

: 00:36:04

Thanks for having me.

747

: 00:36:05

Pleasure.