G-6DEFP72BRX Anger, Insecurity & Awareness with Darren Kanthal - Dads Interrupted

Episode 3

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Published on:

18th Jun 2024

Anger, Insecurity & Awareness with Darren Kanthal

Self-described quasi stepdad Darren Kanthal bravely talks about his struggle with anger and the importance of awareness and repair.

Darren is a leadership and career coach and he is a dad to two kids with his girlfriend Rachel. Darren candidly speaks about the challenges of feeling confident as a stepdad and being able to understand and name his emotions.

As boys, we are often told to diminish our emotions other than anger, so Darren has "cheat sheets" that help him and his clients identify their primary and secondary emotions.

Darren's willingness to open up and share vulnerably with us here inspired me to dive deeper into my own experiences and emotions ... something that is uncomfortable but so worth it.

I hope this episode helps you unlock some things that help you in your own life and relationships.

All this and more...

This... is Dads Interrupted.

To connect with Darren, hire him for leadership and career coaching, or see more about the work he is doing, check out:

Darren Kanthal, Executive & Leadership Coach

LinkedIn

His website:

The Kanthal Group

RESOURCE:

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Transcript
Speaker:

Hey everybody, welcome

to Dad's Interrupted.

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I'm Fred Van Ryper, the host of the show.

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I'm here with Eric Moore.

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And Darren Canthal is our guest today.

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I'm super stoked to have this

conversation, and I hope I didn't

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butcher your last name, Darren, but

please first of all, thank you for

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coming on the show, and if you could

just introduce yourself, cause by the

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way, everybody that's listening, I

always ask my guests, Hey, can you tell

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me a little bit about yourself, tell

me what you do, so I have something to

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go by when I introduce them, and Darren

said, no, fuck you, I'm not doing that.

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So, so Darren, go ahead and tell

everybody who you are and what you do.

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No, I appreciate that.

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It's so funny.

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I do some speaking and it's really

interesting when I'm introduced or

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other people introduced and you've

got this laundry list of like

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all these places they've been and

all their accolades and degrees.

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And it's like, it doesn't

tell me much, right?

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So who is the person behind the thing?

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So it wasn't a total fuck you, but

um, born and raised in New York.

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I'm the oldest of three.

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I've been in Denver, Colorado, twice.

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I was a ski bum in 2003 to 04.

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And then I moved to Denver January 06.

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Spent about 20 years in

corporate human resources.

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backing up before I graduated

college, my father passed away.

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So the father relationship with their

children and really near and dear to me.

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But I took over his small

business after college.

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So I was an entrepreneur.

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And after 20 years in corporate

HR, I started my current business.

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Same name as my dad's

called the camp ball group.

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Funny little story is the

group is just me right now.

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And one day I got a call from my buddy

and I, he's like, what are you doing?

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Transcribed And I said, I went, I'm

going out to lunch and he goes, you're

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taking the whole group out to lunch.

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That was kind of funny.

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But I, I currently work as an

executive coach and a career coach.

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Amazing.

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Amazing.

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I couldn't have said it better myself.

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Literally, I couldn't because you

didn't let me have the notes about that.

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So no, I'm just teasing.

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So I appreciate that.

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Actually, truly, like it's always

honestly, it's probably more impactful

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for people to hear straight from you.

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So that's awesome.

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Obviously we invited you

on because you are a dad.

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So let's, let's dive in.

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I always start the podcast yeah.

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With the same question to my

guest, what does it mean to

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you to be an interrupted dad?

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So I have to confess, I know the

background of Girl, Interrupted,

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but I never saw the movie.

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So my answer may not completely align

with that intention, but it'll be my own.

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So I'm a quasi stepdad.

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And the reason I always say quasi

is because I'm often reminded

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that me and Me and the kids mom

are not married, and I'm not the

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biological dad, so I'm quasi stepdad.

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So the interrupted part

is, is kinda two fold.

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Number one is, Rachel, my girlfriend,

the kid's mom, biological mom,

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we have a natural interruption

because they go to their dads.

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So they have a 5 2 2 5 plan, like

we have them every Monday and

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Tuesday, they're at their dad's every

Wednesday, Thursday, and then we

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alternate Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

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So we have that natural interruption.

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I think For my, from my eyes, a

little bit deeper is the interruption

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sometimes for me is my knee jerk

reactions, which are often steeped

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in anger, which is what I grew up in.

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We were an angrier household, and it's

not to suggest it was always angry, but

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it's a default emotion for me, and through

my own therapy, currently, what I've

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realized is my knee jerk reaction is what

we've dubbed my 13 year old reaction.

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Okay.

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I throw a tantrum, I raise my voice, curse

a lot, not at the kids necessarily, but

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that interrupts the flow of our home.

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And certainly when I first moved

in with Rachel and the kids were

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seven years younger, they're

currently 17 and 15, quite frankly,

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I had to apologize a lot, right?

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I would, I would get

angry about some minutiae.

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I would express the anger at a.

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Eight and 10 year old.

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I'm not even their dad.

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I'm this relative, I don't want to

say stranger, but kind of right.

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Like I'm an adult presence that's

coming down on a child with some

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force, not physical force, right.

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But emotional and voice.

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And by the way, I'm five, eight

for what, for what that matters.

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I'm not a real like imposing figure,

but I know I can be intimidating.

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And anyway, where I'm going with this

is that 13 year old response of mine

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made them cry, made them go to the room.

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And it was my job as the adult to go

in there and apologize to a model.

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I'm sorry, you didn't deserve that.

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That was on me.

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Luckily, Lila accepted those

apologies more often than Paxton.

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Paxton's the older one, but long

winded way to say is, My interruption

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is that 13 year old reaction, temper

tantrum y ish, raising voice, and then

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the pattern was, I got to apologize.

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Those actions are not warranted.

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Yeah, it's interesting, and I

appreciate you being so vulnerable,

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you know, with that experience.

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I think a lot of the point of even

having these types of conversations

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on this show is so that other men and

dads can Number one, not feel so alone

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in some of those experiences, right?

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Because we've all done some

things that we're not proud of.

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But number two is to actually

come out and say publicly, Hey,

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like, I'm healing over here.

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I'm going to therapy.

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I'm doing the work.

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I'm trying to get better and

become better and become more in

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tune with how I want to show up.

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And I'm struggling.

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And if you're struggling too, that's okay.

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But like, It's only okay if you're,

you know, really trying to get to

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know yourself a little bit better

and try to do a little bit better.

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And so I appreciate you for even

being here and saying that out loud,

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I think is, is hopefully helping.

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I think, I believe it's truly

helping somebody that's listening.

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So I want to, I want to talk a

little bit more about that, right?

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So this, this idea, right?

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That.

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Men are really typically really in

tune with their anger emotion, but

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not so much perhaps with all the hosts

of other emotions that humans feel.

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And I was reading an awesome post on

LinkedIn yesterday, I believe, about

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men and crying and how you know, It's

looked at as a weakness often, it's,

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you know, we're told when we're boys,

young boys, not to cry often by our

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parents, people we look up to and respect.

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I know, I was just telling my

wife before we hopped on the show

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today about a story when I went

to see the movie The Green Mile.

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I don't know if you're familiar with

that, it's Tom Hanks movie, Stephen

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King wrote the story and the joke, the

joke is that Stephen King made me cry,

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right, because I, I watched the movie.

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I went to the theater though with my

friends and what wasn't funny was after

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I, I, I wept in the theater because I,

that scene at the end where they, where

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John Coffey is executed, it just, it hit,

you know, it hit for me, but as we're

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leaving the theater, my buddy that I went

with, I think it's, I don't remember.

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I'm not like, it's not like a vivid

memory, but I know who it was,

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and I think there was a few other

people there, but the person in

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particular I'm thinking of, I remember

him making fun of me for crying.

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Another, another boy.

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And I was, you know, I don't know what age

I was, 12, 13, 14, somewhere in that area.

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Maybe even a little bit older.

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Somewhere, somewhere in the teenage area.

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And it's just like reinforcing that idea

that I was told that when I was a little

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boy not to cry, that I should man up, that

I should, you know, toughen up, all those

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things that we're told when we're kids.

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And now I'm being told by a

friend to, like, oh, it's like,

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it's not okay for boys to cry.

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If you really think how fucked up that is,

because We're human with all the emotions.

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We are human first.

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We are human before men.

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And there's all this talk about

what's, how do you be a man?

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What's it mean to be masculine?

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How do you represent

masculinity correctly?

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And for me, and this is just a

consideration, I don't ever tell

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people, Hey, I'm right and you're wrong.

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This is just my experience and this is how

I see the world and how I see being a man.

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But where, where our most powerful is.

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When we show up modeling how to

appropriately deal with all the emotions

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that we feel as a human and showing

that if you are a father, showing how

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to do that to our sons and daughters.

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That's not easy, by the way.

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That takes work, like to your point, like

being intimately in touch with your anger

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is very easy for us because that's, How

we've been taught to show up for people.

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Oh, men are supposed to be tough and in

control and, and it's, it's just always

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funny to me when we talk about these

things because, and funny is probably

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not the right word, it's sad too.

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Like, we're not often in control of our

emotions, and it comes out as anger.

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And someone said, I don't know

who it was, that anger is the

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bodyguard, bodyguard for sadness.

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And I really liked that

because I think that's true.

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I think a lot of times we're

just really sad, but we know we

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can't cry because we'll be made

fun of, or we'll be shut down.

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And so we expressed it as anger.

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So this isn't meant to be a therapy

session and I'm not a therapist.

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I'm a men's coach, but I have

experienced some things and, and, and

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that's my experience is that I find

it to be more powerful to, to say,

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you know what, it's strength to cry.

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It's strength to show up.

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And luckily, I will say, I had a father

who also passed a few years ago but

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he always told me it was okay to cry.

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And so thankfully, I did have

a male presence in my life

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that honored that for me.

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So, my wife and I were just talking.

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I was like, I told her about the post

on LinkedIn and I said, I said, I cry

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like, I like once a week at least.

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And she's like, you cry like every day.

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That's like, that, but

no, no, maybe I do anyway.

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So yeah.

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Thank you for sharing.

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What so you, you said you went to,

you, you go into therapy, you're

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still in therapy, like how, how

has that experience been for you?

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You know, working through some of that.

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I'm going to take a sidestep.

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I'm not going to answer that one just yet.

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Reason being is this yes, with the anger

part, it's, it was, it was very easy

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for me at least to associate with it.

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Cause they're the only emotion I

knew other than happiness and what I

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learned through yet another therapy

ssion after I got divorced in:

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happily, by the way, is that it's not

that I didn't experience the emotions.

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I didn't have a vocabulary as a coach.

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Now I've got a few cheat sheets

that were introduced to me

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that some are column based.

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So the top of the column is

let's say a primary emotion.

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I don't know if that's right or not,

but you'll follow me and then below

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it are the other ones like other

things that associate with anger or

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sadness or happiness or whatever.

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And then there's another representation

where there's a pie a circle.

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So, in the inner part of the pie

is 5 or 6 again, primary emotions.

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Then you start scaling out and so the

long winded point of this story is

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that it wasn't so much that I didn't.

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Experience the emotions.

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I didn't know what the

vocabulary was to say it.

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And then once I got the vocabulary,

I started to realize like you're

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saying anger is the body guard of

sadness is that what was underneath my

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anger was a deep sense of insecurity.

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And so when anyone got close to it

and started poking that nerve, like I

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puffed up and I got angry and I went

on the attack and then it was you

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and you're an asshole and you're this

and you're that And then when I was

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effective, the onus or the focus was not

on my insecurity, but now it's on you.

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And that was like, I got

pretty masterful at that.

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Oh yeah.

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Yeah.

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I'm familiar with it.

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As well that defensiveness, it's like,

you know, how can we make this, how can,

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how can I make this bad feeling go away?

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Well, I'll just, I'll just put

it back on to the other person.

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Right.

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Yep.

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Yep.

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And the other thing that I was

thinking as you were talking

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earlier is that life is hard.

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Right.

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Like it's not an easy

journey that we're on.

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And for those of us that have internal

dialogue, cause I've, I've learned

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some people don't talk to themselves.

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I'm totally blown away by that.

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I don't understand what they do in

their brain, but I don't believe it.

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But yeah, I've, I heard that too.

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Yeah.

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I I've Googled it and supposedly

like 50 percent of the population

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does not have inner dialogue.

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So I can't explain it.

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Don't ask me.

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I have plenty of dialogue.

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And what I realized was that.

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It was the dialogue that

was so damaging, right?

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Like I could be hanging out

with my dearest friends and my

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most beloved family members.

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And my brain would be somewhere else.

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I'm uncomfortable.

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I don't feel good.

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I don't know what to say.

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I don't care what they're saying.

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Is something else going on?

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Could there be more fun elsewhere?

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Like this was narrative all the

fucking time, drove me nuts.

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And it wasn't until I started to recognize

the positive conversations, the negative,

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it didn't matter what I was doing.

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Like I never escaped my brain.

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And so when you ask the

question about the therapy.

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I really start back in 2013

when I got divorced, right?

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The first like intersection that

really was meaningful post divorce

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was I do have this broad range of

emotion and with these cheat sheets,

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I can start to pinpoint what they are.

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Around 2000, well, actually in

:

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I was introduced to a program

called positive intelligence.

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Oh, dude.

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You know it?

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Me too, man.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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It's the best.

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It is the best.

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Cause it gave you names and archetypes

for these voices in our heads, right?

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Judge and Sage and the other voices.

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So that was then another life

changing intersection for me.

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And now most recently with the therapy

is I had like a relapse, if you will,

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like after positive intelligence, I

felt for a good three years, like I

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was on top of the internal narrative.

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My anger was at bay.

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Right.

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I wasn't apologizing as much.

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Which is more an indication of me losing

my temper and offending people, right?

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It's not a, that's, that's the point.

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The apologies is apologizing

for my poor behavior.

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Well, I had a number of events in

20, in 23, where a lot of these

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old angry behaviors came back.

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And really what it was,

it was the narrative.

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I couldn't break the negative narrative.

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I was just.

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I was mad at Rachel.

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I was mad at life.

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I was mad at all this stuff

and I couldn't break the cycle.

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And so the therapist that I'm working

with now, I found around January time

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because I was tired of being angry.

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Like I was looking, I was looking for

everyone else to solve the problem and

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there was no one to solve it but me.

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What do you, what do you think what

have you discovered through that

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process, like, of where that came

from and, and where that's headed?

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You know, it's multifaceted.

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Some of it is wrapped up in

my relationship with Rachel.

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We had established certain norms and

behaviors and, you know, the container,

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it's the way I describe it, like, every

relationship has its own container, and

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the container are the rules, the norms,

the things, the arguments, the love,

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the stuff, right, like the container

of the relationship, and our container

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was built on a very fragile foundation.

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You know, it's like a deck of cards or,

you know, like the card house, right.

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In the perfect symmetry,

the card could build there.

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The house could build really high.

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And there were plenty of moments

where our car or a house of

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cards were really high, right.

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But, you know, you move one car

just a little bit or a grain of sand

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underneath the foundational card

moves and the entire house crumbles.

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And that was mine and Rachel's.

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Kind of routine, like this

is what it would happen.

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And so 23 expose a lot

of that stuff for us.

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So that was an underlying issue,

but you know, so let me stop.

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That was an underlying issue, period.

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At the beginning of this year,

Rachel and I recognized this and

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we had some deep conversations of,

do we want to stay together or not?

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And we decided, yes, we do.

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So we recommitted to our relationship,

which has exponentially improved my

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moods, my sense of self worth, my

connection to her, my involvement

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with our family, et cetera, et cetera.

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So not to deflect and say it's on her,

cause that's not true, but it, our

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relationship is a really meaningful part

of my life and it was in fucking shambles.

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So to speak.

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Yeah.

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So that was one thing.

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Two was a lot of my old

behaviors are coming out.

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These knee jerk dames.

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Like I was not meaning to hurt,

but I was doing it nonetheless.

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Right, not engaging, shitty little

comments, little quips, you know, not

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doing the niceties, you know, I'm up

early in the house, so I make coffee

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and I pour Rachel's cup of coffee every

day and I know she appreciates it.

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I stopped doing that, right?

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I was distant.

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I was quiet.

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I wasn't making jokes.

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I was, eh, whatever.

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You go do whatever.

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I'm going to do my thing.

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So I was kind of isolating myself.

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That was poor.

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It's not who I am.

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I'm a family guy.

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I grew up in a household of five and

we were always with the extended family

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and I'm an extrovert and all that stuff.

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So that was the other thing.

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It's like I was Not physically hurting

myself, but I was emotionally doing so

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consciously, even though I didn't know,

even though I knew I shouldn't, and it

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wasn't helping me, I couldn't stop it.

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So it was really the relationship stuff.

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And then how I was showing up in life

that really need to get figured out.

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Again, that incredible self awareness,

I think, I mean, maybe not there, maybe

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not during, but like the fact that you

got to the point where you needed to, to

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start healing again is really incredible.

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So congratulations on that.

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The, the thing that I guess I would,

that kind of strikes me here is

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like, we talked about the positive

intelligence and how you were kind

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of riding high for a few years.

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And this is the thing about work, right?

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Mental health and, and just improve,

you know, personal development stuff.

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It doesn't stop like literally ever.

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Like, and if you let it trickle away.

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Because you, like, attain some level

of, like, hyperawareness for a spell,

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and you kind of ignore some of it, or

you don't, you know, another, I'll get,

367

:

I'll touch on communication in a second,

because that's another huge piece of

368

:

this, but, yeah, if you let it kind of

fizzle out, And then maybe you're not

369

:

doing the same habits that you were

doing or you're not, you know, journaling

370

:

or whatever the tools that you were

using during that time you're riding

371

:

high, possibly doing some PQ reps, like

those types of things that were really

372

:

helping you stay focused and centered

and aligned with who you wanted to be.

373

:

Well, then, of course, like,

Stress and anxiety and all the

374

:

muck that comes in from life.

375

:

Like you said, life's a long, difficult

journey for most of us, even the,

376

:

even, you know, and I will recognize,

you know, it's, it's, it's difficult.

377

:

in different ways for different people.

378

:

And so I like to, I love the four

agreements, the book by Don Miguel Ruiz.

379

:

And one of the, one of the agreements in

the book is to not take things personally.

380

:

One of them is to not make assumptions.

381

:

And I think don't make assumptions is

a huge part of what I struggle with.

382

:

just in general, and often

they're negative assumptions.

383

:

So my therapist gave me an amazing

tip to make positive assumptions.

384

:

So in the book, the agreement

is don't make assumptions.

385

:

And then my therapist said,

make positive assumptions.

386

:

And I like that because I think Yeah,

if we're gonna like go out in the world

387

:

and interact with people we've never

met before and talk to people we haven't

388

:

seen before, like, why are we immediately

assuming negative things about them?

389

:

Let's assume something positive or even

about in our own relationships too.

390

:

You know, if my, if Sarah does

something, my wife, Sarah, if she does

391

:

something that maybe she, maybe I, in

my head, I'm telling myself a story.

392

:

About, like, the things she said, or

the, or the things she didn't do or

393

:

did, and it, it pissed me off, right?

394

:

That's just a story.

395

:

I haven't talked to her yet.

396

:

I haven't asked her a question about it.

397

:

So now I'm making this negative

assumption, instead of just saying,

398

:

like, Hey, why did you say this?

399

:

What did you mean by,

by the words you used?

400

:

Or this, this came across this way.

401

:

Did you, are you aware of that?

402

:

Like, there are tools you can use to

stop and pause and get out of your own

403

:

head, get those voices that you have

that are telling you all the negative

404

:

shit to start saying positive things.

405

:

And never going to get it all

right all the time, right?

406

:

But yeah, so I guess my point, long

winded way of saying, like, you, you

407

:

know, you do some work just because

you go to therapy and you go through

408

:

a program, whatever the case may be,

you get some coaching, you don't stop.

409

:

Like it's, it's a

lifetime of, of building.

410

:

Thanks.

411

:

You know, you're stacking,

stacking, stacking, stacking, and

412

:

yeah, you might fall down here and

there, so you, you pick back up.

413

:

And so I love that story.

414

:

I think it's, it's a perfect example of

how to, you know, recover and realign

415

:

with the man, you know, you are here

in your heart and the man you want to

416

:

be, and just showing up for yourself.

417

:

You know, yes, you're showing

up for Rachel, but first we

418

:

got to show up for ourselves.

419

:

I mean, that's truly the, the start is

like we're showing up for ourselves first.

420

:

So when we talk about communication,

you, you alluded to it.

421

:

I don't think you use the word

communication, but you were talking

422

:

about voices in your head, right?

423

:

So you're always talking to yourself.

424

:

So the first thing we have to do is

talk, use positive talk in our, In

425

:

our or or and recognize negative talk

because we all have negative talk.

426

:

It's like pointing that out as a

judge as a saboteur as whatever word

427

:

you want to use the inner critic and

you know, imposter syndrome comes up

428

:

a lot talking about that out loud.

429

:

Or in a journal, or just in your thoughts,

say like, Hey, yeah, that's a thought.

430

:

It's not necessarily the truth, or

it's not going to serve me well.

431

:

It's not going to be productive in my

most important relationships as a dad, as

432

:

a husband, as a colleague, as a friend.

433

:

And then telling yourself a different

story, making that positive assumption.

434

:

And then, and then outward

communication, right?

435

:

To the, to the person you're relating

to, to say like, Hey, I'm having

436

:

this negative thought, but I want

to confirm, you know, my assumption.

437

:

And Is negative and I'm sure it's

incorrect, but I want to talk to you

438

:

about it and we have such a hard time

having those conversations because

439

:

they feel so awkward and uncomfortable,

especially if you don't do it frequently,

440

:

but it's like, that's the first step.

441

:

I think I think communication is.

442

:

To me, it's like paramount to everything

else, and if you look at all the

443

:

statistics of why people split up, why

people separate, why people get divorced

444

:

and even in business, you know, why

businesses struggle it's it's because

445

:

they're having problems communicating.

446

:

Yeah.

447

:

So, awesome job, awesome, you know,

that you guys recommitted, and I'm sure

448

:

like, kind of almost like, you pointed

out, you said something about worth,

449

:

and I think for men, worth is, probably

for, I imagine for everyone, worth is

450

:

a big deal, but I think, I know for

myself, like, I want to know my worth,

451

:

and I want to be, I want to be a man.

452

:

I want to feel good, right?

453

:

I want to feel like I I bring value to, to

people's lives in, in whatever small way.

454

:

And I try to intentionally do that.

455

:

But sometimes it feels like, some

days you feel like, man, like, I'm

456

:

trying, I'm doing all this stuff.

457

:

Nobody's saying, nobody's recognizing it.

458

:

Nobody's saying anything that all that,

you know, and getting your own head.

459

:

And it's like, ah, maybe I'm

not showing up the way I should.

460

:

And so like that idea to keep

communicating and to, to say, you

461

:

know, hey, like, I'm here to, I'm here

to, to first, like, show up for me.

462

:

And then I also want to show up

for you in the ways you need me to.

463

:

And that's an everyday thing.

464

:

That's a commitment.

465

:

Literally every day.

466

:

Or like to take, you know, hey,

today I'm, I'm not able to show up.

467

:

I'm struggling.

468

:

I'm having a hard time.

469

:

That's okay.

470

:

But if you can acknowledge that,

and then your partner, if they're a

471

:

good partner, will understand that

because they struggle with that too.

472

:

You know, they're not always there

to, they're not always showing

473

:

up the ways we need them to every

single day of the year either.

474

:

So I think having that open, honest

conversation is a, is a huge, huge benefit

475

:

for both people in that relationship.

476

:

And our kids need to see that too,

because they, they've, I know my,

477

:

my kids, Daughters, teenagers, 17.

478

:

She feels a lot of pressure to show

up for herself at school and a lot

479

:

of pressure to like be an adult.

480

:

Soon enough and what that's going to bring

and it's like, Hey, it's okay to fail.

481

:

It's okay to miss.

482

:

It's okay to make a mistake, you know,

and I, I'm going to stop talking.

483

:

Cause I feel like I've been

rambling now for like 10 minutes,

484

:

but it just brings up a lot for me

because I really relate to that.

485

:

And I relate to struggling in a marriage.

486

:

I've been married almost 10 years, but

Sarah and I are not without our problems.

487

:

And we've gone through some,

some of that same stuff of like.

488

:

And those same conversations of like,

Hey, like, what are we doing here?

489

:

You know, do we like, like, let's

either call it or let's recommit.

490

:

Right.

491

:

So there's a bunch, there's a bunch of

stuff I want to comment on real quick.

492

:

Yeah.

493

:

Please.

494

:

The first is the, the assume the

positive intent, those exact words,

495

:

an old mentor of mine told me.

496

:

A P I assume positive intent.

497

:

So I've thought about that a lot.

498

:

Cause I used to think people's

actions that I viewed as negative were

499

:

directed directly at me and they were

sinister, which wasn't fair to them.

500

:

But that's what my insecurity was like.

501

:

You did this to me.

502

:

You did this because

you're trying to hurt me.

503

:

And this boss was trying to tell

me, like, assume they weren't, why

504

:

would that possibly have happened?

505

:

It was really powerful.

506

:

So I want to comment on that too.

507

:

I was born in 1975 and I only

share that as a timestamp because

508

:

I grew up watching three's company.

509

:

If you remember that show, I

do that entire show was built

510

:

upon a miscommunication and then

all the hilarity that followed.

511

:

Right.

512

:

Mr.

513

:

Furley would hit it here.

514

:

Half of a story that Larry said and

go down all these rabbit holes for 22

515

:

minutes and then at the very end, find

out that he missed half the story.

516

:

And I, I highlight that only because I

think generally speaking without being

517

:

absolute communication or lack thereof

is the reason shit goes sideways period.

518

:

Right.

519

:

Like we don't say something or

the way we say it is offending.

520

:

Or the way we communicate

in our head is that.

521

:

You did something to hurt me

and then we go down that road.

522

:

Right.

523

:

So it's communication is the

center of it all, in my opinion.

524

:

Three is a lot of the coaching.

525

:

I shouldn't say a lot of

the coaching often enough.

526

:

My clients bring to me a story that

is one sided in their own head.

527

:

And one of my sayings is, invite

someone else to the conversation,

528

:

so you're not playing all the roles.

529

:

Because when you fill in the blanks, your

creativity, your judge, your imposter,

530

:

fills it in with the most ridiculous

stuff, and when we start to believe that

531

:

stuff, we go down these rabbit holes.

532

:

It's assuming negative intent.

533

:

And then the last thing I was going to

say is with Rachel and with my friends

534

:

and my family, like over the years, we

have vernacular and lingo and sayings.

535

:

And those sayings are instrumental to

problem or conflict resolution, right?

536

:

Well, not right, filler word.

537

:

Rachel and I are both coaches.

538

:

So there are times where we'll

be like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

539

:

And then we'll kind of coach our way

through whatever's starting to get heated.

540

:

Or I laugh because as I'm trying to

be more cognitive of the space before

541

:

my reaction to things, and it's

usually when things are starting to

542

:

get heated, I will audibly exhale.

543

:

And when I first started doing it,

Rachel respond to, what was that exhale?

544

:

Right.

545

:

And of course, like a 13 year

old, what I can't breathe,

546

:

but as we've gotten longer and not long,

I would say longer than the tooth, as

547

:

we've become more attuned to that breath

of mine, it's become an alert signal to

548

:

both of us that something's going on.

549

:

Let's pause for a minute.

550

:

We now use this 13 year

old responsive mind, right?

551

:

It's not always in the moment, but

sometimes it's a, it's a referring back.

552

:

Hey, sorry, that was my 13 year old

response or Rachel might say to me,

553

:

what was with that 13 year old response?

554

:

Right.

555

:

So vernacular meaning it's nonviolent

communication and I'm not, I'm not

556

:

well versed in that discipline.

557

:

It's a, it's an actual discipline,

nonviolent communication.

558

:

But we can, Rachel and I specifically,

a little less so with the kids, they're

559

:

not quite as sophisticated yet, but

Rachel and I specifically can use

560

:

these lingos to diffuse situations

or, or reflect back to understand

561

:

what happened, how we got sideways,

how we're going to get back on track.

562

:

Apologize.

563

:

I love you.

564

:

All that good stuff.

565

:

So that was my long win of

saying, like, be mindful.

566

:

You, Fred, you, Eric, people listening.

567

:

Like, what's the specific

lingo in your relationships?

568

:

Plural that you can then bring up

to defuse situations without it

569

:

being, well, you did this and, you

know, that's a fight, you know?

570

:

I love that, too, because, Darren, like

that, like the old you, like, I don't

571

:

know what you're Would it, like the

insecurity piece, I think for a lot of

572

:

men, that's still real and, and there's

probably a ton of men listening to

573

:

this that are like, I'm not insecure.

574

:

I'd have you check yourself on that.

575

:

But it takes work to, to get to

the point to where you can hear

576

:

your partner come to you and say,

like, that's your 13 year old.

577

:

What was it?

578

:

What was with that 13 year old response?

579

:

Like most men would take that

and that would be a giant.

580

:

escalation, conflict, yelling, screaming,

you know, slamming, whatever, throwing,

581

:

whatever, you know, anger comes out.

582

:

If they heard their partner say that

and for you to be able to like actually

583

:

use it as a benefit because it's because

I always say like feedback is a gift.

584

:

Feedback is critical.

585

:

It's meant to be.

586

:

Accelerate your growth, really.

587

:

Like, if you get feedback at work,

if it's, even if it's you know,

588

:

quote unquote negative, right?

589

:

We can take the negative feedback

and use it to grow faster.

590

:

And it's, it's really truly data for

us, how we are perceived in the world.

591

:

And so, if you can, and it's, I'm not

saying I'm perfect at this all the time,

592

:

but if you can figure out a way to be less

insecure, then I think you'll be better.

593

:

when you get this, this feedback,

whether it's positive or negative,

594

:

because you don't want to get too high

when you get positive feedback either.

595

:

That's a whole other conversation.

596

:

But if you're getting some, what you

would presume as negative feedback,

597

:

you can take that feedback and

say, okay, I didn't realize this.

598

:

I didn't realize this was what I was

putting out there into the world, right?

599

:

I want to be, I want to do a good job.

600

:

I want to be great at what I'm doing,

whether it's being a husband, being

601

:

a dad, being great at, at work.

602

:

And I'm apparently not hitting

all the marks that I want to hit.

603

:

This person is literally giving me a gift.

604

:

They're, they're telling me what I need

to do to do better, and you don't have to

605

:

agree with it necessarily, like sometimes

maybe you don't agree with the feedback,

606

:

but you can ask some questions, right?

607

:

And you can say, Oh, I didn't know that,

but here's why I don't think that's true.

608

:

But, you know, using the feedback

as, as a conversation starter rather

609

:

than a conversation ender, right?

610

:

And so I think, like, just for you

to get to that point, it's huge

611

:

because, you know, we're, we're all,

we all struggle with insecurity.

612

:

And I think it never truly goes away.

613

:

But if you can recognize it, admit it,

acknowledge it, be aware of it, and then

614

:

when it shows up for you, like, push it

back down a little bit, if you will, and

615

:

like, say, like, that's my insecurity,

that's my 13 year old response, whatever,

616

:

how, yeah, I love that you named it,

like, whatever that word is for you,

617

:

that phrase is for you, and, and be okay

with it, like, we're all, we all have

618

:

it, we all have it, you're not alone,

you're not weaker, it doesn't mean

619

:

you're inferior, it doesn't mean you're

not doing great, when you're not doing

620

:

great is when you pretend like you don't

have it, And that you're right all the

621

:

time, and that you have to be right.

622

:

You couldn't possibly be wrong.

623

:

You build that wall, right?

624

:

And then you're lonely.

625

:

Then you're alone behind that wall,

and then you have conversations

626

:

about possibly splitting up because

man, this shit's not working, right?

627

:

So, yeah, that's amazing.

628

:

Um, Eric, Eric, this is the time for you.

629

:

I know you, you've been

sitting back listening.

630

:

I know you got an amazing question or two.

631

:

Let's, let's hear it.

632

:

No pressure on the amazing part, huh?

633

:

Actually I do have a, I really want to,

I really want to ask you more about the

634

:

archetype thing, because that, that's,

that's, that's really interesting.

635

:

But before I do that, I want to say,

when you were talking about your

636

:

struggles, Last year, and you noticed

the little clues that were keying you

637

:

in that you were, you were creating

distance or building walls or whatever.

638

:

Man, I really identified with that because

I'm a, I'm a classic self saboteur.

639

:

I and proud, a proud self sabotager.

640

:

At least I used to be.

641

:

I don't know if you guys ever

saw of course you saw Fight Club.

642

:

There's a part where Brad Pitt, he beats

the crap out of Jared Leto in there.

643

:

And and Ed Norton's

like, why'd you do that?

644

:

He's like, I wanted to destroy,

I felt like, I felt like

645

:

destroying something beautiful.

646

:

All my life, I used that line when

I knew I was about to self sabotage.

647

:

Like like someone pours

me a shot of whiskey.

648

:

I'm like, ah, we're going to fuck

up something beautiful tonight.

649

:

You know, or like, I'm like,

ah, I was a proud self saboteur.

650

:

And you know, why did I, I really

liked that girl in college.

651

:

I banged her friend.

652

:

So now I can't be with that girl.

653

:

Why did I do that?

654

:

Well, I guess I just wanted to

destroy something beautiful.

655

:

I mean, I've used this phrase.

656

:

And now I see like, ah, I

got, I'm self sabotaging.

657

:

What are the clues?

658

:

Why am I putting this distance

between me and my wife?

659

:

What, what is it?

660

:

And so I really identified with like

just trying to learn to identify

661

:

the little things inside of me.

662

:

And why am I doing it?

663

:

And that has been just

a journey and a half.

664

:

And so, that's what I was thinking

about when you were talking about that.

665

:

I was like, oh, man, I identify with that.

666

:

The movie makes it sound

so sexy and appealing.

667

:

It's like, yeah, it's a movie.

668

:

Yeah, and the whiskey helps too, you know.

669

:

Yeah.

670

:

Let me just burn this part

of my life down for a second.

671

:

It's tough to get out of that.

672

:

Yeah, there's a couple of things to

comment on for me, at least, is I know

673

:

the movie, I know the scene, and he, he

destroys Jared Leto, crushes that, right?

674

:

I hear you on the self

sabotaging, being proud of it.

675

:

Same.

676

:

You know, one of the things that

came up as you were talking to Eric

677

:

and even something you said earlier,

Frederick, what Fred, sorry, looking

678

:

at the name on your zoom either way.

679

:

Fair enough.

680

:

Is my game.

681

:

My intent, my purpose

was I had to be right.

682

:

Like my insecurity showed up in such a

way that affected my sense of self worth.

683

:

I didn't think I was smart enough.

684

:

I didn't think I belonged in the room.

685

:

I didn't think, quite frankly, I just

didn't think I was enough, period.

686

:

And so the only way for me to overcome

that sense was to be quote unquote, right.

687

:

And so my whole intention was to prove

you are wrong and you had to admit it.

688

:

And until you did that, I was going

to fight to the death, so to speak.

689

:

And that was my game, but my mom, with

my dad, with my ex girlfriends, my ex

690

:

wife, with friends, like everybody.

691

:

And it wasn't until I realized through

positive intelligence that it was an

692

:

insecurity and that was the way I overcame

it, that I finally stopped doing that.

693

:

Like, of course I want to be right.

694

:

But I don't need to anymore.

695

:

And really what I really want is, I want

to be part of the story, I want to be part

696

:

of the conversation, I want to contribute.

697

:

I don't need to be the biggest asshole

in the room, I don't have to be the

698

:

loudest voice, I'll find my spots.

699

:

And I would say that lesson in and of

itself was the most transformational.

700

:

And a lot of people, as you were

saying Fred, like that is a fight

701

:

for us, maybe more so for men.

702

:

But I don't think that's a fair

statement, because I know plenty of

703

:

ladies that want to be right, too.

704

:

But anyway, if you're fighting to

be right, the question is, why?

705

:

Like, why is being right

so important, right?

706

:

Who cares who introduced you to a band?

707

:

Or who the lead singer Like, I've seen

these fights, I've been part of them.

708

:

And it's, it's ridiculous.

709

:

I'm being overly simplistic, but so

anyway, that was one thing I wanted

710

:

to say, Eric, in response to what

you said, and Fred, you mentioned it

711

:

earlier about the idea of being right.

712

:

It's like, it's really not

that important to me anymore.

713

:

Yeah.

714

:

Yeah, I think, I think a

lot of my self sabotage has

715

:

always come from insecurities.

716

:

And, and I'm not worthy, a feeling

of I'm not worthy or I'm not

717

:

good enough, I'm not cool enough,

I'm not funny, all that stuff.

718

:

It all, it all comes from that,

whatever, whatever damaged

719

:

that little boy, you know.

720

:

Yeah.

721

:

It all comes from there.

722

:

But I was really, I was really curious,

what is the thing you keep saying?

723

:

Positive intelligence.

724

:

It's a positive intelligence.

725

:

This is the thing that

we mentioned archetypes.

726

:

Yeah.

727

:

Yes.

728

:

Yeah.

729

:

I would love to know more

about that if you don't mind.

730

:

So positive intelligence or PQ for

short, it's a book, it's a philosophy,

731

:

and there's even a daily practice to it.

732

:

In addition to a formal program,

That is seven weeks long.

733

:

It was so impactful for me.

734

:

I got certified in it and I

take certain clients through it.

735

:

So it's kind of complex, but not the

first two archetypes is duality, which

736

:

is in our brains or in our personas or

in our psyche, there's the negative side

737

:

of the house, which is what we call judge

and the judge judges ourselves, so it's.

738

:

Same as we were talking,

Eric, I'm not good enough.

739

:

I'm not funny enough.

740

:

You're going to fail.

741

:

People are going to laugh at you.

742

:

Like any sort of judgment you have

of yourself in the world of PQ,

743

:

we say is derived from your judge.

744

:

Your judge also judges

other people, right?

745

:

When we were talking earlier

about assuming negative intent.

746

:

Well, of course, Eric did

that action to hurt me.

747

:

Why else would he do that?

748

:

He's fucked up.

749

:

He's this, he's that.

750

:

So there's this outward judgment.

751

:

And then there's also this

judgment of circumstance.

752

:

Which is like, Oh, I can't succeed because

I live in Denver and you're in the heart

753

:

of New York or whatever, you know, you

can make up any situation that you judge.

754

:

And then the other side of the

house is positive, which is all the

755

:

love and compassion, creativity,

exploration, your wiser self, the

756

:

grace you show yourself and others.

757

:

And we call that sage.

758

:

So you got this duality of judge and sage.

759

:

Now, what I learned about myself

and through some of my clients is a

760

:

lot of us associate with the judge

and sometimes hear the sage, when

761

:

in actuality, what we want to then

start to realize is we are sage.

762

:

And this judge character, this judge, this

judge archetype is trying to take over.

763

:

And unfortunately, as we start

to age, like when you're born,

764

:

you don't have judgments, right?

765

:

You want food and you want to crap

your diaper and you want love, right?

766

:

Like that's what you want.

767

:

And over time we start to learn

insecurity and no, and don't do

768

:

this and you get hurt, et cetera.

769

:

And I.

770

:

Again, through my eyes as I got older

I associated so much with that judge.

771

:

Anyway, where I was starting to go was

when we listened to the judge, right?

772

:

Sage is quiet.

773

:

We want it the other way around.

774

:

And so that's the duality of it.

775

:

The archetypes I were talking about is

what Fred alluded to about saboteurs.

776

:

That's what we call them.

777

:

So the easy ones to understand

are controller, pleaser, stickler.

778

:

These are archetypes, right?

779

:

When you are stride stickler,

for instance, the stickler

780

:

is rooted in perfection.

781

:

And if you're constantly striving for

perfection, you're never going to reach

782

:

it because what is perfect, right?

783

:

It's an unattainable goal.

784

:

And so it's this insatiable

need for you to be infallible.

785

:

You to be perfect, the world to be

perfect, your partner to be perfect.

786

:

And when nothing meets those expectations,

you sabotage, Oh God, I'm not good enough.

787

:

I'm not perfect.

788

:

My work product isn't perfect.

789

:

My partner isn't perfect.

790

:

I don't like this blemish on my

face or on my arm or whatever.

791

:

Like.

792

:

So these archetypes start inspiring

to continue to bring you down.

793

:

And so that's the world of PQ.

794

:

And there's a bunch of, there's

nine archetypes of these saboteurs.

795

:

That's really fascinating stuff.

796

:

It's cool, man.

797

:

Yeah.

798

:

It's, it's.

799

:

Take a look at that.

800

:

It's a, so it's, you can find the

information on positiveintelligence.

801

:

com.

802

:

The, the thing that I think it does for

people first is it gives them awareness.

803

:

I think that's like a

really eye opening thing.

804

:

When you start to look at yourself.

805

:

In that way, because like we

said, everybody has insecurity.

806

:

Everybody has a judge to

everybody has the sabotage.

807

:

They're not all necessarily the same.

808

:

Like, you're sabotage.

809

:

Your saboteurs are most likely different

than mine, but we all have them.

810

:

Right?

811

:

And so and I think in the like,

when we were younger, Probably the,

812

:

the, the closest thing to like this

concept for me was like angel and

813

:

devil on your shoulder kind of thing.

814

:

Right?

815

:

Like on one hand, you got this voice

telling you this negative thing.

816

:

And on the other hand, you got

this other voice telling you that,

817

:

you know, this positive thing, but

how, how, which voice is louder.

818

:

Right?

819

:

And so, yeah, I think it's something

that was totally worthwhile to check out.

820

:

I went through the pro

I'm actually in funny day.

821

:

I want to connect with you more on this.

822

:

I'm in my seventh week.

823

:

Amazing program gave me so much value

and yeah, I'd love to talk more about

824

:

that offline here, but question.

825

:

I know we're running up on time.

826

:

We had this for an hour.

827

:

Like, do you have, are you hard?

828

:

Stop 1 o'clock?

829

:

I got another five ish.

830

:

Okay.

831

:

Cause this has been an

amazing conversation.

832

:

Super fascinating.

833

:

I think it's super, I really

believe this will be really

834

:

helpful for the, for the listeners.

835

:

And certainly if you've got questions.

836

:

If you're listening and you want to

know more about Darren, just quickly,

837

:

Darren, like, Where can they find you?

838

:

What's the best way to

get in touch with you?

839

:

It's interesting.

840

:

When you said my name earlier, when

you introduced me and asked if you

841

:

butchered it, which you did not, it

reminded me that of the last name.

842

:

So my grandmother and grandfather

both escaped Nazi Germany

843

:

separately and arrived in New York.

844

:

So I share that cause

our, our name is unique.

845

:

There's not a lot of

camp balls in the U S.

846

:

And I have an interesting

distinction of being the only

847

:

Darren Canthall on LinkedIn.

848

:

So if you spell my last name,

right and my first name, right,

849

:

you'll find me easy enough.

850

:

So that's, that's one way.

851

:

I think that's the easiest.

852

:

The name of my company is the Canthall

Group and my website is the second way.

853

:

And then all the contact information

is on LinkedIn or the website.

854

:

Beautiful.

855

:

Beautiful.

856

:

Eric, you got any other questions

that are burning inside you right now?

857

:

I want to give you the opportunity.

858

:

No, go ahead.

859

:

I was curious about the cheat sheets.

860

:

That sounds fascinating as well.

861

:

Like just you said there's a pie

chart of the major emotions and

862

:

from there you can branch out.

863

:

I was curious about like what are those?

864

:

I mean, anger was one of them, but then

you said there was like six of them, yeah?

865

:

Well, I'm a dork and I actually

have it laminated because I don't

866

:

know how I feel half the time.

867

:

So, the middle of this pie has

happy, surprised, bad, fearful,

868

:

angry, disgusted, and sad.

869

:

So I often associate with anger, and

if I go out to the outer part of the

870

:

pie, anger has things like withdrawn,

violated, betrayed, humiliated,

871

:

frustrated it's not on this particular

representation, but that's where I found

872

:

insecurity was associated with anger.

873

:

So.

874

:

I will often look at angry because

that's where I default to and

875

:

go to the outer part of the pie

to see what's going on with me.

876

:

The other side here is, if you can still,

if you can see it as more of a grid, so

877

:

it's a bit more linear and there's mad.

878

:

And so in, in mad, there is impatient,

which is something I certainly feel when

879

:

I'm angry irritable, which is when I

wake up on the wrong side of the bed.

880

:

I'm going to the negative because.

881

:

I think it's an easier way to

think about it because I would

882

:

just always say I'm pissed off.

883

:

And after a while it was like, I'm

sure I was the boy who cried wolf.

884

:

Oh, Darren's pissed off again.

885

:

Great.

886

:

He's probably gonna scream and yell.

887

:

Great.

888

:

But when I started to realize that

I was insecure, impatient, feeling

889

:

disrespected, humiliated, right.

890

:

It was a totally different way of

telling people like I'm disappointed

891

:

as opposed to I'm pissed off.

892

:

I really like this because men

do struggle with talking about

893

:

their emotions, how they feel.

894

:

So I think that's super helpful

to have a little, at least until

895

:

you kind of get used to it.

896

:

And I love that you literally

have it laminated next to you,

897

:

even though you work, you've gone

through positive intelligence.

898

:

You're a, you're an executive

coach, highly successful.

899

:

And yet.

900

:

You're still like, you know what?

901

:

I need this.

902

:

Like, I need this for me.

903

:

This is how I want to show up for

myself today, is to have this tool,

904

:

this resource available when I need it.

905

:

And that's a thing where I think a lot

of people are like, I'll do it on my own.

906

:

Like, especially men, we're told,

like, don't ask for directions.

907

:

Don't ask for help.

908

:

If you ask for help, you're weak.

909

:

So don't go to therapy.

910

:

Don't hire a coach.

911

:

You don't need a coach.

912

:

You just, you can do it.

913

:

You're a man.

914

:

Like, that's such bullshit.

915

:

So it's like, no, like,

you need all the tools.

916

:

You need more tools.

917

:

You need, and I'm not trying to complicate

things, like, you need the tools you need.

918

:

You don't need the tools

necessarily that I need, right?

919

:

So it's different for everybody, but I

think having an emotional list there, the

920

:

wheel and the, and the list just to get

in touch with your emotions is so huge.

921

:

I want to end on this.

922

:

Cause I know you only have a few minutes.

923

:

Have you seen the recent,

I'll call it a TikTok trend.

924

:

I didn't, I don't like even using those

words as a 45 year old man, but have

925

:

you seen the TikTok trend with the, it

started with if a woman, goes to the,

926

:

is alone in the woods, would she rather

be alone with a bear or with a man?

927

:

And a lot of women, most, most every

woman has, and this is a strange man,

928

:

not your friend, not your husband.

929

:

So a bear or a strange man.

930

:

Almost everyone chooses bear, and there's

a lot to be said about that, and we

931

:

don't have time to dive into that at all.

932

:

However, there was a, like, almost like

a reaction video, I'll say of someone

933

:

that posted for a man to choose, do

they want to express their feelings

934

:

to their partner or to a brick wall?

935

:

And there's a lot of men

that are choosing brick wall.

936

:

And I'm really intrigued by this,

and I want to dive into it further,

937

:

and I haven't really, like, had

the time to even digest all of it.

938

:

But I'm interested to talk

about it with you, Darren.

939

:

Like,

940

:

here's where I'm going with

this, and this is just my

941

:

initial Kind of feeling about it.

942

:

And I, this is a download too of

a conversation I was having with

943

:

Sarah right before I hopped on here.

944

:

But this idea that men aren't in

touch with their emotions aren't

945

:

allowed to even maybe in some

cases talk about how they feel.

946

:

And then they don't know

how to when they grow up.

947

:

So boys aren't, so boys, let's

say boys aren't allowed to be in

948

:

touch with most of their emotions.

949

:

They're, they're often told

that it's not manly to do so.

950

:

They grow up to become men who now want

successful relationships, but they don't

951

:

know how to talk to their partners.

952

:

They don't know how they feel.

953

:

They can't even explain in words, to your

point earlier in the episode, vocabulary.

954

:

They don't have the vocabulary

to even talk about these feelings

955

:

and emotions in a proper way.

956

:

When they do finally get to a

point where they have the skills.

957

:

to perhaps have these vulnerable

conversations with their partner.

958

:

What it sounds to me like is some of

these men are getting poor reactions

959

:

from their female partners who

look at them as if they are weak.

960

:

And we've got a problem here because

I know I know in my heart that

961

:

the best way to have a sustainable

relationship is to be able to talk

962

:

vulnerably and openly about your

emotions and communicate with your

963

:

partner and have these deep connections.

964

:

That's the way you, that's the way you

are able to have those deep intimacy,

965

:

that deep intimacy and deep connection.

966

:

But if there are some couples out there,

so the, so females are not equipped to

967

:

handle it because of the same reasons,

because of our socialization, you

968

:

know, because they, men haven't done

that for them most of their lives.

969

:

Men have yelled at them most of

their lives, maybe continue to.

970

:

And so now they're getting this like,

What's looked at as weak, kind of a

971

:

weak, a weakness, and they're actually

calling it weak, and it's shutting the

972

:

man down back to, back to when he was

a little boy being told the same thing.

973

:

So it's just an interesting conversation.

974

:

I don't think we have time to really dive

into that completely, but any thoughts

975

:

just on that or, or we can table it and

come back to it because it is a kind of

976

:

a longer, probably a longer response.

977

:

I generally think we as a society

are emotionally unevolved.

978

:

I think we put a ton more emphasis

on physicality than we do mental

979

:

health and I think it's pervasive.

980

:

I think the younger generation or

younger generations are seemingly

981

:

more evolved than I am as an Xer and

some of my contemporaries and it'll

982

:

be real interesting to see if their

generations are like From a majority

983

:

standpoint, are they being raised in a

more emotionally aware state in which we

984

:

need to wait for them to age and catch

up and then to spread like wildfire?

985

:

Or is our emotional un

evolution so pervasive that

986

:

they too will end up like us?

987

:

Meaning, we don't know how to

express ourselves well enough, we're

988

:

jockeying for position, right, we're

seen as got a bigger dick, right?

989

:

Right.

990

:

We're playing these games that do little

more than get temporary satisfaction, but

991

:

long term grief issues, yada, yada, yada.

992

:

And it's, and it's both sexes.

993

:

It's men and women, right?

994

:

Cause to your point is sure.

995

:

If a man is evolved enough, if you

will, to express an emotion and

996

:

same for women for that matter.

997

:

And so let's just say one side

of a partnership expresses

998

:

their emotional state.

999

:

Okay.

:

00:54:08,709 --> 00:54:08,769

Thank you.

:

00:54:09,614 --> 00:54:16,204

And the other abuses it or misuses it

or chastises or does something negative.

:

00:54:16,464 --> 00:54:19,734

There's a lack of evolution on that

side, but then it's like, well,

:

00:54:19,734 --> 00:54:20,794

why should I say it ever again?

:

00:54:21,164 --> 00:54:21,674

Exactly.

:

00:54:23,754 --> 00:54:29,664

I think we're also often fighting for

the same thing that I used to write.

:

00:54:29,664 --> 00:54:33,984

There's an ego piece to our game, right?

:

00:54:33,984 --> 00:54:38,854

I'm not an egotist, or at least I don't

think I am, but my ego is so fragile.

:

00:54:39,764 --> 00:54:43,104

That you giving me constructive

criticism was an attack.

:

00:54:44,074 --> 00:54:48,914

And now I had to, I had to attack back

because you just offended me, even

:

00:54:48,914 --> 00:54:50,384

though you just gave me criticism.

:

00:54:50,714 --> 00:54:52,304

I was not evolved enough, period.

:

00:54:53,354 --> 00:54:57,234

And anyway, I can probably go down that

rabbit hole really long, but it was the

:

00:54:57,244 --> 00:54:58,884

ego that I really wanted to identify.

:

00:54:58,884 --> 00:55:01,984

A lot of us are fighting to save our ego.

:

00:55:01,985 --> 00:55:05,564

And I think part of that is fear of.

:

00:55:06,164 --> 00:55:07,384

whatever we're fearful of.

:

00:55:07,764 --> 00:55:11,964

New ideas, change, the impact

this is going to have on me, you

:

00:55:11,964 --> 00:55:13,494

being smarter than me, whatever.

:

00:55:14,094 --> 00:55:17,954

And I think it's the reason that

so many of us say no to new ideas.

:

00:55:18,439 --> 00:55:21,329

We say challenge the status

quo, but not that way.

:

00:55:21,879 --> 00:55:23,099

Oh, not that way either.

:

00:55:23,249 --> 00:55:26,199

And sorry, that third,

no, not good enough.

:

00:55:26,519 --> 00:55:26,899

Why?

:

00:55:27,189 --> 00:55:27,939

I think it's fear.

:

00:55:27,959 --> 00:55:28,689

And I think it's ego.

:

00:55:30,489 --> 00:55:31,019

Amazing.

:

00:55:31,669 --> 00:55:33,589

Sorry to drop that bomb

on you out of nowhere.

:

00:55:34,419 --> 00:55:35,369

But thank you again.

:

00:55:35,379 --> 00:55:38,559

We're, you know, wrapping up just because,

you know, you're short on time and we, I'm

:

00:55:38,559 --> 00:55:40,419

sure we could talk forever on this stuff.

:

00:55:40,419 --> 00:55:41,499

I love talking about it.

:

00:55:41,499 --> 00:55:43,629

You were Incredible guest.

:

00:55:43,879 --> 00:55:46,419

Thank you again for sharing

a part of your day with us.

:

00:55:46,749 --> 00:55:49,479

Hopefully we've helped some dads and

men out there kind of think a little

:

00:55:49,479 --> 00:55:52,899

more deeply and getting more touched

with their emotions and realize that

:

00:55:52,899 --> 00:55:56,279

these types of conversations are what

push us forward to become better dads

:

00:55:56,279 --> 00:56:00,539

and better men and just better for

ourselves showing up, you know, stronger.

:

00:56:01,059 --> 00:56:02,479

So thanks.

:

00:56:02,509 --> 00:56:03,709

Thanks a lot for coming on.

:

00:56:04,344 --> 00:56:04,974

Thank you both.

:

00:56:04,974 --> 00:56:05,844

It was great to talk to you.

:

00:56:05,984 --> 00:56:07,464

And I will say, I'll leave with this.

:

00:56:07,464 --> 00:56:11,344

I always love a good yada, yada, yada

reference on the, on the, on our episodes.

:

00:56:11,344 --> 00:56:13,314

So thank you for providing that too.

:

00:56:13,824 --> 00:56:14,224

All right.

:

00:56:15,294 --> 00:56:16,194

Have a good day, gents.

:

00:56:16,544 --> 00:56:17,024

See you later.

:

00:56:17,704 --> 00:56:17,984

Take care.

:

00:56:17,984 --> 00:56:18,294

Bye.

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Dads Interrupted
Real Talk on Fatherhood, Relationships, & Growth
What does it mean to be a good man—and a present dad—in a world that never taught you how?
Dads Interrupted is a podcast about fatherhood, masculinity, and the journey to becoming the man your family actually needs. Hosted by men’s coach and dad of 12+ years Fred Van Riper, Dads Interrupted dives deep into the conversations men aren’t having—but desperately need.

We explore what it means to lead with purpose, break free from outdated roles, and build the kind of relationships that change everything—at home, at work, and in your own head.

You’ll hear honest, real-world stories from men navigating fatherhood, marriage, emotional growth, and the myths that hold us back. As a Certified Fair Play Facilitator, Fred offers tools for shared responsibility, emotional leadership, and creating a home that works for everyone.

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Frederick Van Riper

Hi, I'm Fred, a coach, father, and the creator of Seat at the Table Coaching.

I work with men who are doing a lot right on paper…

but still feel like they’re missing at home, stuck in their heads, or showing up as someone they don’t quite recognize.

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